Marriage and other LGBTQ Rights

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

We see reasoned arguments on both sides of the debate about opening marriage to same sex couples.

We also see some incredibly silly things said by people who are in positions which you might hope require some reasonable level of competence. This one, by a radio talk show host (who has also come out with some other breath-taking nonsense on the subject recently) really takes the biscuit for me.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/12/20...o-marry-a-man/

That's not just silly, Brian. It's a serious threat.

Note the tell-tale dehumanization in the second paragraph:

The Christian radio host said ... that gay people aren’t human and should therefore not be protected under the US constitution.

- - - - - - -

You probably don't need this reminder, Brian, but for other readers:

Such dehumanization has been a regular feature in the lead-up to various atrocities and war crimes, as I've previously noted.

The link is to this article:
"US Radio host: Gays aren’t human so aren’t protected by the US constitution"
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/12/14...-constitution/

Portraying the "others" as less-than-fully-human is used to allow bypassing normal human abhorrence of killing or performing other atrocities on other human beings ... or simply denying them civil rights.

Even the worst folks normally have trouble with the idea of killing another, equally human person, so dehumanization is a common technique for suppressing recognition of normal humanness in the "others" in order to have less guilt about doing violence to them ... or, in this case, about denying normal legal protections.

Once such folks have established the less-than-human meme, they and others will find it easier to advocate further steps.

[Brian-E]

Thankyou, cheesehead, and in fact your reminder is just as useful for me as it is for anyone else. Laughing at the ridiculous things being said is all very well, but presumably her words are actually taken seriously by many of her listeners and then it ceases to be funny.

Dehumanising is indeed an effective tactic for making apparently civilised people feel alright about not treating others as human beings like themselves.

[kladner]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joel-d...b_2397363.html

A Gay couple in Columbus, Ohio, USA are harassed while waiting in line at a pizza truck. Not only do most of the others in line tell the harasser to STFU, the pizza workers tell him to leave the line because they will not serve him.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by kladner

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joel-d...b_2397363.html

A Gay couple in Columbus, Ohio, USA are harassed while waiting in line at a pizza truck. Not only do most of the others in line tell the harasser to STFU, the pizza workers tell him to leave the line because they will not serve him.

I really like this story. I've never heard anything like it before in relation to intolerant behaviour towards gay people, and somehow it sounds like a watershed moment. It's as if that community in Ohio has passed a tipping point after which hatred of gay people, always the norm up until now, has suddenly become unacceptable to the degree that people will speak up about it when they see it occurring. Heart warming!

[kladner]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

I really like this story. I've never heard anything like it before in relation to intolerant behaviour towards gay people, and somehow it sounds like a watershed moment. It's as if that community in Ohio has passed a tipping point after which hatred of gay people, always the norm up until now, has suddenly become unacceptable to the degree that people will speak up about it when they see it occurring. Heart warming!

It certainly gave me hope, especially coming from Ohio. My experiences with that state have been with the Dayton area, which seemed pretty conservative and evangelical.

[Dubslow]

Originally Posted by kladner

It certainly gave me hope, especially coming from Ohio. My experiences with that state have been with the Dayton area, which seemed pretty conservative and evangelical.

I'm there now; my grandparents are somewhat religious yet both also fairly staunchly democratic. (You've heard what I said about my grandpa and income taxes before, I think.)

[kladner]

Originally Posted by Dubslow

I'm there now; my grandparents are somewhat religious yet both also fairly staunchly democratic. (You've heard what I said about my grandpa and income taxes before, I think.)

There are good people everywhere. I remember the post about your grandpa and taxes, but not the exact content.

[jasong]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

I really like this story. I've never heard anything like it before in relation to intolerant behaviour towards gay people, and somehow it sounds like a watershed moment. It's as if that community in Ohio has passed a tipping point after which hatred of gay people, always the norm up until now, has suddenly become unacceptable to the degree that people will speak up about it when they see it occurring. Heart warming!

Just because I like to piss in the wind, there's a difference between intolerance and disapproval. A perfect person, if we could find one right now, would realize homosexuality is an unhealthy way to behave, but wouldn't feel the need to persecute homosexuals.

And, for the record, none of the Christians I know actually persecute, or get joy out of condemning, homosexuality. Tbh, I think placing people under the broad umbrella of homosexual intolerance is a form of bigotry in and of itself.

This is one of the reasons the country is so divided on the issue. We're in a situation where we've got people that want to believe that the human race is inherently decent if you only give it a chance. Unfortunately, we also have thousands of years of evidence to the contrary.

The proper response is to realize that people are inherently evil, but also 100% redeemable. Being born a certain way doesn't mean it deserves to be embraced as healthy.

[kladner]

A perfect person, if we could find one right now, would realize homosexuality is an unhealthy way to behave, but wouldn't feel the need to persecute homosexuals.

Please explain why the above is self-evident outside of religious mythology.

[jasong]

Originally Posted by kladner

Please explain why the above is self-evident outside of religious mythology.

I've placed in bold where the problem lies. Even if a person hasn't been to church in forever, the belief that there is a loving God that has a plan for your life tends to change your behavior in a major way.

People don't respond to stimuli in the same way when they believe the world is ordered and intentional. It's all about the long view, faith in God is almost equal to faith in the idea of eternity.

Maybe I'm wrong and Jesus isn't Lord. But if He isn't Lord, I don't see a reason to give a damn about anything. Some say God plus nothing, I say God OR nothing. I've examined the basic tenets of the major religions and Christianity is the only one that doesn't appear to turn into hell if you have to tolerate it for eternity. I don't want to face Mecca seven times a day for all eternity(legalism is immoral according to the Bible) and I don't want to be absorbed into nothing in the next trillion years. I'm drawing a blank on the other ones, but I don't think they've changed in any major way in the last decade, imo.

[chappy]

Originally Posted by jasong

I've placed in bold where the problem lies.

Well, at least we agree on one thing.