Marriage and other LGBTQ Rights

[Jwb52z]

Originally Posted by jasong

I intentionally said same-sex marriage, rather than gay marriage. I suppose a better term would be domestic partnership.

Also, while I believe homosexuality to be immoral, I don't think the government has the right to outlaw it. What they do have a right to do is restrict things like public displays of affection within a privately owned business, unless the owner approves. What people do in their homes is up to them. If I had a neighbor next door who wanted to take his male lover out on his front lawn and make out, he would have a legal right to do so, in my mind, as long as he wasn't intentionally trying to harass me. It's like that expression,"Intent is 9/10s of the law." Or is it,"Ownership is 9/10s of the law."? Either way, the government isn't in charge of morality, they're in charge of protecting people from harm, and maybe providing services that everyone can access, like public roads.

Businesses don't have a right to discriminate with whom they do business based on sexuality, although some try, so PDAs by those who are their customers are no reason either, really, I think.

[Jwb52z]

Originally Posted by kladner

Your questions are indeed "the crux of the biscuit," to use Frank Zappa's line. I tend to think of immorality as harming others. Whatever you call it, where is the harm in homosexual behavior?

I think this is the point where a few people across the United States want to claim that "harm" and "offense" or "mentally upset" are the same things when they're not.

[Zeta-Flux]

Originally Posted by Jwb52z

There are other studies that say that children of same sex couples do as well or better than those of straight parents as well.

First, Brian-E's question was about stability, so I limited myself to that measure. It is true that older studies disagree with the more recent studies. This is because they were older, and occurred just after same-sex marriage was implemented in many of these places. Now that more time has elapsed, there is much more data available on what same-sex couples do with respect to marriage.

Second, on the studies that investigate whether same-sex parents raise children as well as opposite-gender couples, there are a number of noted flaws in most of those studies. (1) Many of the studies use sample sizes too small to actually make statistical statements. (This is not entirely the fault of the study makers. It is just a fact that the number of same-sex parents in the population is very small.) (2) Many of the studies use samples which are self-selected. For example, to try and get more people in the study (so that they can say something statistically) they advertize at the local gay-rights office. So, in most of these studies, their samples are primarily white well-educated women, who have ulterior motives for participating in a study. (This is true of any self-selected study group.) (3) Many of these studies are reports from the parents on the children, rather than the children self-reporting on their outcome.

More recently, a large-scale random study was done in which grown children reported on their outcomes. Contrary to the familiar wisdom of earlier studies, those children raised by parents who ever participated in homosexual behaviors also reported experimenting with homosexual behaviors. A host of other negative outcomes were also found.

You can find the initial study (for free) here and a follow-up article (not for free) here.

[jasong]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Fine, but I was rather hoping you would explain why you think homosexuality is immoral. And then what exactly do you mean by homosexuality in this context? The "state of being gay", to use kladner's words? Being in love with someone of your own sex? Hugging and kissing someone of your own sex? Sex with someone of your own sex?

Well, tbh, this is where most non-Christians tend to get offended. Christians believe the human race's main purpose is to glorify God, and God says homosexuality is immoral. I don't know of an instance where he has literally stated it's immoral, but there are plenty of verses where it's a logical to conclude that's what was meant.

The reason I don't think the government should outlaw it is because the government isn't a person, despite what American law says. Additionally...

Edit: I say person because I believe only people have souls, therefore only people should rebuke others. Rebuke, in this instance, means inform other people they are offending God.

When you force someone to adhere to morals that they don't agree with, it reduces the likelyhood that they will agree those morals are a good idea later on. Obviously, if you accidentally teach someone to hate God's laws, that equates to something bad despite the rationalizations about the short term benefits.

[Brian-E]

So let's accept for a moment that God says homosexuality is immoral, as you write. What precisely does God mean by homosexuality? Once you've made that clear we can take this further.

[jasong]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

So let's accept for a moment that God says homosexuality is immoral, as you write. What precisely does God mean by homosexuality? Once you've made that clear we can take this further.

To me, homosexuality is having sex, or desiring to have sex, with someone of the same gender.

So if someone has homosexual urges, but consistently hands those urges to God so He can deal with them, then they're not a homosexual. Additionally, if someone is a Christian and rejects God's law about homosexuality, then they qualify as a homosexual even if they've never had urges pertaining to that.

This is similar to when a pimp sells a prostitute. The pimp is a prostitute, according to God's laws, because he approves of the prostitution.

[Dubslow]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/1...rsy/?hpt=hp_c3

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by jasong

Well, tbh, this is where most non-Christians tend to get offended. Christians believe the human race's main purpose is to glorify God, and God says homosexuality is immoral. I don't know of an instance where he has literally stated it's immoral, but there are plenty of verses where it's a logical to conclude that's what was meant.

Jasong... Can you please provide an example of where God said that homosexuality is immoral?

You have already admitted that you can't. And yet you still act as if He has.

Now, assuming you are referring to the Bible as the word of God, what does it say about divorce?

Or eating pigs?

[kladner]

@ Dubslow-

Thanks for the link. That is a really unusual story.

re chalsall:

.....or eating meat and milk together, i.e. cheeseburgers
wearing clothing of different fabrics
dissing one's parents
and on, and on

[jasong]

Originally Posted by kladner

@ Dubslow-

Thanks for the link. That is a really unusual story.

re chalsall:

.....or eating meat and milk together, i.e. cheeseburgers
wearing clothing of different fabrics
dissing one's parents
and on, and on

If I'm not mistaken, that's all Old Testament stuff. Before Christ came, it was difficult to literally be with God. But with Christ's death, we have a direct line to God. Rather than the Old Testament being the law, Christ is the law. So Christians have a direct link to God if they have any problems.

Obviously, this doesn't always work out that well. There's still the whole sin nature, and the tendency to behave as if our beliefs came from God when they came from us. In the case of homosexuality, some of the biggest attacks come from people claiming to be Christians. Simply put, sin is that which separates us from God. And obviously, when a man lusts after another man, he's not seeking God's will.

One of the main points in the Bible is that we're supposed to treat others as more important than ourselves. There are tons of examples of this in the Bible. So what happens when people become so selfish that outrageous sexual creativity becomes acceptable? We live in a world where it's dead easy to learn stuff we're probably better off not knowing. My mother loves Dr. Phil, but the dude is an evil bastard who makes money off of families under the guise of "therapy." But he's super-popular in today's Me Me society.

As we get closer to the Last Days, people will become more and more self-centered and selfish. Christian concepts that have simply been accepted will be challenged and rejected. Nobody knows how bad it will get before God finally calls a final end to it, but I don't consider being a Last Days christian to be a privilege that I desire. The world's bad enough as it is, but it's going to get much, MUCH worse.

It's already evident in the weather, we're getting hurricanes way more frequently. And it'll be evident in other ways, pandemics that kills tons of people, and more frequently happening disasters. We'll have 42 months of worldwide peace in the middle of this, then a war that will knock your socks off.

The topic is homosexuality, but that's a distraction. The whole point of the homosexuality debate is to distract people. The Devil wants people to be arming themselves with fire extinguishers to fight a hurricane. His whole game is distraction and mis-direction. He doesn't need you to side with him, he just needs you to ride the fence until it's too late.

[Brian-E]

Jasong, I think your new avatar is the most priceless piece of art on this forum. No superlative is too much for it. I suspect that you are not responsible for it, but I hope it survives as a beautiful piece of art next to your valuable contributions here. In any case I hope you can smile about it too.

You are concerned about selfishness and lack of concern for others: I tend to agree with you there. You also think "homosexuality" is a distraction from more pressing issues concerning our survival. But what do you think about the concept of love for another human being? Is love a distraction, or does it help solve the world's problems?