Marriage and other LGBTQ Rights - Page 61

chappy · 2012-11-13, 22:34

skan · 2012-11-28, 21:11

I think they have the same right to get married but the question is...
Do they have right to adopt children?
Or even better
Do children have right to have a mother and a father?

jasong · 2012-11-29, 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian-E

It's good to see you give your take. You have posted several times in this thread, but your point of view on the issue being discussed has always been obscure up until now, to me at least.

However: I'm still not entirely clear about your point of view. You evidently see it as a moral issue: that much is clear from your post. But you don't state precisely what moral issue it is. (You do talk vaguely about sexuality. But I'm not sure why sexuality is relevant here. Any light you shed on this would be very welcome.)

I see marriage as a fullfilment of lifelong love. Your Christianity is well known here, and on that basis I expect you probably agree with me (for example, 1 Corinthians 13:13 refers to faith, hope and love, love being the greatest of the three, and of course Jesus Christ taught that we should love one another). While not sharing your Christian faith, I can still appreciate some of its teachings. Are you with me here?

What precisely is the moral difficulty then with marriage between two women or two men as a commitment of love?

Technically, I don't have a problem with same-sex marriage, it's the homosexuality I have a problem with.

From my point of view, the government, in all it's forms, shouldn't give a damn about sexuality, except where someone is being harmed. The government's main purpose to prevent people from harming other people, and I don't think that includes moral harm. If I were trying to push through same-sex marriage, I think the proper thing to do is remove homosexuality from the rhetoric and focus on the idea of expanding rights. People might not agree with that, but the toes that are already being stepped on won't hurt so much, if I may extend a metaphor to the breaking point.

Dubslow · 2012-11-29, 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasong

If I were trying to push through same-sex marriage, I think the proper thing to do is remove homosexuality from the rhetoric and focus on the idea of expanding rights. People might not agree with that, but the toes that are already being stepped on won't hurt so much, if I may extend a metaphor to the breaking point.

I've thought that the IRS and federal code should just collectively be rid of the term "marriage".

kladner · 2012-11-29, 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasong

Technically, I don't have a problem with same-sex marriage, it's the homosexuality I have a problem with.

I have to ask; if you think gay marriage is OK, what is your problem with the state of being gay?

EDIT: @Dubslow

Brian-E · 2012-11-29, 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by skan

I think they have the same right to get married but the question is...
Do they have right to adopt children?
Or even better
Do children have right to have a mother and a father?

In my opinion no-one has the automatic right to adopt children. Prospective adoptive parents need to demonstrate that they can provide a stable and loving home.

What does the gender of the parents have to do with this requirement?

Zeta-Flux · 2012-11-30, 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian-E

In my opinion no-one has the automatic right to adopt children. Prospective adoptive parents need to demonstrate that they can provide a stable and loving home.

What does the gender of the parents have to do with this requirement?

According to recent studies, apparently a lot. Same-sex couples, even in countries which allow marriage, have a significantly higher probability of instability. This wikipedia article discusses these issues. (It is kind of anachronistic, in that it cites a news article from 1997 as a counterpoint to a much more thorough and recent study from 2006.)

This of course does not address the other reasons (i.e., other than statistical stability) that children benefit from parents of opposite genders.

jasong · 2012-11-30, 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by kladner

I have to ask; if you think gay marriage is OK, what is your problem with the state of being gay?

EDIT: @Dubslow

I intentionally said same-sex marriage, rather than gay marriage. I suppose a better term would be domestic partnership.

Also, while I believe homosexuality to be immoral, I don't think the government has the right to outlaw it. What they do have a right to do is restrict things like public displays of affection within a privately owned business, unless the owner approves. What people do in their homes is up to them. If I had a neighbor next door who wanted to take his male lover out on his front lawn and make out, he would have a legal right to do so, in my mind, as long as he wasn't intentionally trying to harass me. It's like that expression,"Intent is 9/10s of the law." Or is it,"Ownership is 9/10s of the law."? Either way, the government isn't in charge of morality, they're in charge of protecting people from harm, and maybe providing services that everyone can access, like public roads.

Brian-E · 2012-11-30, 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasong

[...]Also, while I believe homosexuality to be immoral, I don't think the government has the right to outlaw it.[...]

Fine, but I was rather hoping you would explain why you think homosexuality is immoral. And then what exactly do you mean by homosexuality in this context? The "state of being gay", to use kladner's words? Being in love with someone of your own sex? Hugging and kissing someone of your own sex? Sex with someone of your own sex?

kladner · 2012-12-01, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Fine, but I was rather hoping you would explain why you think homosexuality is immoral. And then what exactly do you mean by homosexuality in this context? The "state of being gay", to use kladner's words? Being in love with someone of your own sex? Hugging and kissing someone of your own sex? Sex with someone of your own sex?

Your questions are indeed "the crux of the biscuit," to use Frank Zappa's line. I tend to think of immorality as harming others. Whatever you call it, where is the harm in homosexual behavior?

Jwb52z · 2012-12-01, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux

According to recent studies, apparently a lot. Same-sex couples, even in countries which allow marriage, have a significantly higher probability of instability. This wikipedia article discusses these issues. (It is kind of anachronistic, in that it cites a news article from 1997 as a counterpoint to a much more thorough and recent study from 2006.)

This of course does not address the other reasons (i.e., other than statistical stability) that children benefit from parents of opposite genders.

There are other studies that say that children of same sex couples do as well or better than those of straight parents as well.

2012-11-13, 22:34	#661
chappy "Jeff" Feb 2012 St. Louis, Missouri, USA 2205₈ Posts	son of a !!!!

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2012-11-28, 21:11	#662
skan Apr 2012 94₁₀ Posts	I think they have the same right to get married but the question is... Do they have right to adopt children? Or even better Do children have right to have a mother and a father?