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Old 2022-01-21, 13:22   #1640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriesel View Post
I did not wastespend enough time on the post to read that far.
So, you passed on a false claim as fact because you considered it a waste of time to check the link you gave us, to see whether it was actually true.

This appears to be a textbook example of "confirmation bias," and a good illustration of how misinformation is spread.
Quote:
No comment from you on the futility of attempting herd immunity, I see.
Well, if you insist...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriesel View Post
<snip>
Vaccines that work and are regarded as safe enough to use widely are a year or two away. It's likely we'll have fitful returns to work and stoppages again, and still get herd immunity before vaccines are ready for general use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriesel View Post
<snip>
In combination, the prevalence of antibodies and fatality totals put this in the rough numerical range of a bad influenza season.

The high Massachussetts figures from multiple studies indicate a considerable step toward establishing herd immunity there; nearly half way.
<snip>
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriesel View Post
<snip>
Herd immunity much closer than antibody tests suggest, say 2 new studies
https://reason.com/2020/07/01/covid-...2-new-studies/
Happy now?
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Old 2022-01-21, 15:19   #1641
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Originally Posted by chalsall View Post
Indeed. We keep being told by sociologists that the worst thing one can do when trying to convince someone they are wrong is to tell them they are wrong.

Even, empirically, with empirical evidence.

The question then becomes... What is to be done?

This is a serious question.

Are there any serious answers? Seriously.
Unfortunately, there's not much you can do to "convince" someone who's been brainwashed that their beliefs are wrong.

I have had people tell me that they feel they're protected because they eat healthy food, get enough sleep, and take certain dietary supplements. I generally indicate approval of taking good care of yourself, but say I think those things may not be enough to deal with this bug, and that (plus me being old) is why I got vaccinated (then boosted).

In some cases, despite being sorely tempted, I have refrained from instead responding, "Have you made your will?" as probably not helpful.

Last fiddled with by Dr Sardonicus on 2022-01-21 at 15:20 Reason: Add missing word
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Old 2022-01-21, 15:40   #1642
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Originally Posted by kriesel https://mersenneforum.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Quote:
<snip>
Herd immunity much closer than antibody tests suggest, say 2 new studies
That was from July 2020. Numerous variants ago. Numerous studies ago. Perhaps the combination of vaccination plus naturally acquired resistance from previous infections could provide herd immunity. Omicron's mildness and rapid spread may promote that. Wait and see I guess. And I note the estimated level for herd immunity has drastically increased from IIRC ~80% to 94% over the past 1.5 years, requiring an estimated 3.3-fold reduction in the percentage of not-immune.

Last fiddled with by kriesel on 2022-01-21 at 15:49
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Old 2022-01-21, 17:03   #1643
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Herd immunity seems to be the Swiss army knife of excuses for not trying to get as many people as possible vaccinated.

In days gone by, proposals such as the "Barrington Declaration" argued that we should concentrate on "protecting the most vulnerable," and just let everybody else get infected, at which point the vulnerable would be protected by "herd immunity."

Now, it seems the argument is that we should give up on vaccination because vaccination alone can't achieve herd immunity.

I haven't really viewed "herd immunity" as an objective, however. To me, the most compelling reason to get more shots into more arms has been to keep more of those infected with COVID out of the hospital. If the vaccination rate in the US were 80% or even 75% instead of in the low sixties, we'd be living in a different world as far as the strain on the US health care system goes. At this point, I think we can count on the vaccines providing good protection against becoming seriously ill with COVID.

I am not sure how the immunity rate can even reliably be measured. The number vaccinated and/or known to have been infected and recovered would provide a lower bound. But there are plenty of people who won't get vaccinated and also won't get tested if they develop cold or flu-like symptoms. I am not aware of large-scale testing for prior infection, and I'm sure that a lot of people who won't get vaccinated and won't take a diagnostic test, won't take that test either.

We may have gotten lucky with Omicron - it seems to be highly infectious and of lower virulence than previous "variants of concern." It may fulfill the function of a high vaccination rate. But the number of people requiring hospital care for Omicron is significant, and a high percentage of those people are unvaccinated.

And if we are very very lucky, Omicron may relegate COVID to a status similar to that of the common cold.

But I wouldn't count on it.
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Old 2022-01-21, 20:57   #1644
chalsall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus View Post
I generally indicate approval of taking good care of yourself, but say I think those things may not be enough to deal with this bug, and that (plus me being old) is why I got vaccinated (then boosted).

In some cases, despite being sorely tempted, I have refrained from instead responding, "Have you made your will?" as probably not helpful.
I hear and agree with you. Death will occur to everyone sometime in the future. The question then becomes how best can one manages the risk dimensions in one's real-time "situation".

Personally, I (and most I know) go with the empirical. Empirically, not everyone does (including some friends of mine who are otherwise absolutely logical in their world-views)...

One tiny pedantic point though... I would argue CV should not be referred to as a "Bug". Bug suggests something alive. It can be argued viruses aren't actually alive, but simply leverage on higher levels of biology to do the work for them.

Basically, a clever hack; manifesting out of the chaos "in the wild".
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Old 2022-01-22, 14:02   #1645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
He wasn't vaccinated and died of COVID. I might start referring to him as "Meathead".
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Old 2022-01-22, 16:08   #1646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogue View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
He wasn't vaccinated and died of COVID. I might start referring to him as "Meathead".
So says TMZ. I note that the announcement of his death on Facebook says (my emphasis)
Quote:
Our hearts are broken to announce that the incomparable Meat Loaf passed away tonight surrounded by his wife Deborah, daughters Pearl and Amanda and close friends.
EDIT: TMZ says he died of COVID, but also says
Quote:
We do not know if he was vaccinated.
It does seem reasonably well documented, though, that he was anti-vaccine mandate and anti-mask.

So far, I haven't found any independent verification of TMZ's claim about the cause of death.

Last fiddled with by Dr Sardonicus on 2022-01-22 at 16:19 Reason: As indicated
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Old 2022-01-22, 16:41   #1647
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Right, against the vaccine mandate, but nothing says he was anti-vax, although he was not vaccinated based upon what I have read.
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Old 2022-01-22, 16:50   #1648
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Orange County Medical Director Dr. Raul Pino put on leave for encouraging Orange County Department of Health employees to get vaccinated
Quote:
The Florida Department of Health Medical Director that oversees areas of Orange County including Orlando has been put on leave for encouraging his own staff to get vaccinated.

Orange County Medical Director Dr. Raul Pino wrote an email to staff on Jan. 4th encouraging them to get vaccinated and boosted for COVID-19.

In it he wrote, "I have a hard time understanding how we can be in public health and not practice it."

After sending the email he was placed on administrative leave.

In an email to WMFE, the Florida Department of Health has confirmed Pino was put on leave because, "the decision to get vaccinated is a personal choice that should be free from coercion and mandates from employers."

Florida DOH says it's even conducting an inquiry into whether any laws were broken by sending the email.

Republican Governor Ron DeSantis has banned vaccine mandates in the workplace, and the state has seen a surge in Omicron cases.

Last fiddled with by Dr Sardonicus on 2022-01-22 at 16:56 Reason: Insert missing space
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Old 2022-01-23, 17:23   #1649
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From: Florida Department of Health

To: All Hospital Administrators, Chief Medical Officers, and Chiefs of Surgery

Subject: Mask mandates

It has come to our attention that you have policies in place mandating that surgeons wear masks while operating. Further, doctors may be required to wear masks while on their rounds.

It has also come to our attention that before operating, surgeons are required to scrub their hands, and even further up their arms; and to wear not only masks, but gloves and gowns while operating.

YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED: These mandates must be suspended forthwith. Hospitals found to be in violation of this order will be closed immediately. Hospital Administrators, et al will also be investigated for possible violations of law.

It should not be necessary to point out that washing hands, wearing gloves, and donning masks or gowns are matters of personal choice.

Requiring them with work rules or other forms of coercion is Medical Tyranny, and therefore unacceptable.
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Old 2022-01-23, 17:36   #1650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus View Post
From: Florida Department of Health

To: All Hospital Administrators, Chief Medical Officers, and Chiefs of Surgery

Subject: Mask mandates

It has come to our attention that you have policies in place mandating that surgeons wear masks while operating. Further, doctors may be required to wear masks while on their rounds.

It has also come to our attention that before operating, surgeons are required to scrub their hands, and even further up their arms; and to wear not only masks, but gloves and gowns while operating.

YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED: These mandates must be suspended forthwith. Hospitals found to be in violation of this order will be closed immediately. Hospital Administrators, et al will also be investigated for possible violations of law.

It should not be necessary to point out that washing hands, wearing gloves, and donning masks or gowns are matters of personal choice.

Requiring them with work rules or other forms of coercion is Medical Tyranny, and therefore unacceptable.
+1
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