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Old 2022-08-14, 19:07   #12
kriesel
 
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That's a newcomer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer#Pre-20th_century But software? Do player piano rolls count? Weaving tapes for controlling looms? Probably protected from their inception by laws against theft of tangible property, the cards or tapes, if not also by patent or copyright law.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime95 View Post
So you confess to software piracy -- a crime.
IIRC George has the leisure time to program for free, in part because he was well rewarded for his earlier work, instead of it being stolen.

Last fiddled with by kriesel on 2022-08-14 at 19:21
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Old 2022-08-14, 19:39   #13
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@Prime95: I didn't commit piracy, because I didn't re-upload it. I simply have it from when I downloaded it from Marcel's site, back before it was taken down. Same goes with other programs: I didn't upload them. Rather, I simply downloaded them for personal use, then deleted them after I was done. IMO, that's not stealing because the original author is not deprived of it. I remember a thread (Is Piracy Stealing) that debated this, and my opinion is that the answer is no, as long as the original isn't being deleted off the author's hardware/website. This especially goes for software (like Primo) that doesn't cost money to download/use.

EDIT: Found it: https://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=16548

Last fiddled with by Stargate38 on 2022-08-14 at 19:48 Reason: elaboration
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Old 2022-08-14, 19:51   #14
Prime95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stargate38 View Post
Same goes with other programs: I didn't upload them. Rather, I simply downloaded them committed software piracy for personal use, then deleted them after I was done. IMO, that's not stealing...
Fixed that for ya.
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Old 2022-08-14, 19:58   #15
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Downloading something for personal use is NOT stealing! Why do you call it piracy/stealing when the original author isn't deprived of the software?! It shouldn't even be considered piracy to download such stuff, only when uploading, which I don't do.

EDIT: What do you say about people who want to make backup copies of their DVDs, in case the original disc was ruined (i.e. scratched, broken, etc.)? They have to circumvent the encryption to do so. Would you consider that stealing, even though it's just a personal backup? I sure don't.

EDIT2: What do you think of the so-called "illegal numbers"? I wouldn't consider them illegal, because a number is just that: a number. It's how that number is used that is legal/illegal.

Last fiddled with by Stargate38 on 2022-08-14 at 20:04 Reason: typo
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Old 2022-08-14, 20:05   #16
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You use very different definitions of piracy:
George: Getting a software in a way that is disliked by the software's author.
Daniel: Prohibiting the software's author to share his software ever again.
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Old 2022-08-14, 20:13   #17
Stargate38
 
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Actually, I'm not prohibiting it. I simply want him to find a way to legally share his software for both Windows and Linux.
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Old 2022-08-14, 20:25   #18
Prime95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stargate38 View Post
I simply want...
Of what possible relevance is that? Are you someone special? Are your wants and desires more important than Marcel's? If so, why?

The software author does not want to do that -- end of story. You have no moral or legal authority to override his wishes.

Any attempt to circumvent the author's license is criminal software piracy.
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Old 2022-08-14, 20:31   #19
xilman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stargate38 View Post
Also, I believe that said law is in violation of the First Amendment, and therefore should be repealed, or at least modified to allow distribution of such software, provided that the contents are unmodified...
What is this First Amendment of which you speak?

Is that some quaint parochial custom with which I am not fully conversant?
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Old 2022-08-14, 20:56   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stargate38 View Post
Downloading something for personal use is NOT stealing! Why do you call it piracy/stealing when the original author isn't deprived of the software?!
Everyone, please try to use technical terms correctly. The quoted material from Stargate38 is quite correct. Some of the preceding statements are very seriously incorrect.

Downloading any software or data for any purpose is not stealing, by definition. In many English-speaking jurisdictions "stealing" is defined as "taking with intent to deprive".

Making a copy of something may or may not be copyright infringement or patent infringement, depending on precisely what has been copied and under what conditions, including the desires of the copyright or patent holder if any. Even if it is not infringement, it may be illegal for other reasons, such as by breaching sundry data protection regulations.

Piracy covers a range of actions taken by non-governmental agencies against vessels which are located outside national territorial boundaries. Traditionally it applied only to naval vessels. Recently attempts have been made to extend it to cover aircraft, notably by the US. The status of similar acts which take place above the Earth's atmosphere is presently an interesting and much discussed situation.

Please do not get into an argument with people who have studied intellectual property law in the course of their professional career. Do so here and a few practiced pedants will generally attempt to put you straight. In other circumstances your arguments could cost you dearly.
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Old 2022-08-14, 21:14   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by science_man_88 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriesel View Post
That's a newcomer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer#Pre-20th_century But software? Do player piano rolls count? Weaving tapes for controlling looms? Probably protected from their inception by laws against theft of tangible property, the cards or tapes, if not also by patent or copyright law.
Yes, I'm well aware of these earlier examples - though of course the Analytical Engine was never built. I should have said "electronic computers" or something to that effect, but that's not really relevant to the topic being discussed here.

My point stands that copyright and piracy laws for software did not exist in the early 20th century because there was no reason for them to do so. As Ken says, those laws do now exist, and you should follow them, like it or not.
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Old 2022-08-14, 22:08   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
<snip>
Piracy covers a range of actions taken by non-governmental agencies against vessels which are located outside national territorial boundaries. Traditionally it applied only to naval vessels. Recently attempts have been made to extend it to cover aircraft, notably by the US. The status of similar acts which take place above the Earth's atmosphere is presently an interesting and much discussed situation.
<snip>
"Piracy" has been used for at least the last 40 years to mean various forms of copyright infringement. Computer software and digital copying are just newer forms of "intellectual property," which has been recognized in patent and copyright law for centuries.

Back when computer games were on 5.25" floppy disks, the sellers often in effect charged more than the market would bear for the privilege of buying "legit" copies. The result was, enterprising hackers circumvented the security measures that guarded against unauthorized duplication, and sold "bootleg" or "pirated" copies for a fraction of what "legit" copies cost.

I remember seeing some guys I knew around 40 years ago playing some early video game on an early Apple computer. When the floppy with the game started up, it gave the name of the game, followed by the message "Broken by Super Pirates."

This kind of "piracy" doesn't deprive the copyright holders of the products they're selling, of course. It deprives them of sales, and of royalties they would receive from someone who was licensed to produce and sell copies.

Before the law caught up with technology, theft could only be of something tangible - "If you can't feel it, you can't steal it." Then came electronic funds transfers and hacking...

PIRACY, n. Commerce without its folly-swaddles, just as God made it. - Amrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
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