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Old 2002-10-28, 12:16   #1
Pjetro
 
Oct 2002

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Default AMD vs. Intel topic

AMD vs. Intel
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Old 2002-10-28, 12:28   #2
Deamiter
 
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hmmm.... not quite sure how to respond to that one. Obviously, Intel is better for P95 because of the SSE2 optimization...

Either way, I just wish that AMD could get their act together and release the Hammer because I don't have the dough to shell out on a new P4, but I could seriously use some more processing power.... *Stupid Intel pricing*
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Old 2002-10-28, 12:55   #3
Pjetro
 
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:( I am running manual primality test on, with mine Athlon XP 2000+. I noted the P4 machine running at 2 GHz is two-times faster than AXP, because the Prime95 is optimized for P4 and its SSE2 instruction set (compare time needed for iteration in "area" 17 millions -> P4 : 0.05-0.06 sec. but AXP 0.09-0.10 sec!!). Hope there is gonna be version of P95 for Athlon machines too (increasing of speed should be about 5-10 perc. : except of 18 days pure time I will need "only" 16.5 + 16 days pure time).
But actually AXP has a big handicap, when we compare the speed for Prime95 with P4 machines.
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Old 2002-10-28, 21:24   #4
QuintLeo
 
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The reason the P-IV is faster than the Athlon on prime95 is that SSE2 stuff - Prime95 is one of the *very* few programs that runs more efficiently on a P-IV per clock than on anything else.

Since the Athlon line will never support SSE2 (unless Barton turns out to do so - the rumours are mixed on that), it will never compete per clock with the P-IV.

On the other hand, Athlon systems can be built so much more inexpen$ively than P-IV systems that that the Athlon *is* competative on price-performance with the P-IV - I literally can build 2 Athlon systems for the price of a single P-IV system that will match the Prime95 performace of those two Athlons combined.

Right now, the "sweet spots" for Prime95 seem to be a Pentium-IV 1.8 Northwood overclocked to 2.4 Ghz, or the Athlon 1900+. This WILL change over time, as parts pricing varies - the P-IVs are actually benefiting right now from RAMBUS getting a little cheaper vs. DDR getting more expensive, and AMD having decided to temporarily stop trying to buy market share with extreme low pricing on their CPUs.


I also want to see what Hammer can do - if it's SSE2 implimentation is as efficient per clock as the rest of the CPU seems to be, I believe that the P-IV is going to lose it's Prime95 crown on an outright basis, much less a "per clock" basis. Dunno about the price-performance, though - I would bet that AMD keeps the Hammer pricing up for at least a while, as they need the help on the bottom line....
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Old 2002-10-29, 01:47   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuintLeo
On the other hand, Athlon systems can be built so much more inexpen$ively than P-IV systems that that the Athlon *is* competative on price-performance with the P-IV - I literally can build 2 Athlon systems for the price of a single P-IV system that will match the Prime95 performace of those two Athlons combined.
True enough on an initial outlay basis. However, the Athlons will function quite nicely as space heaters, while the P4 is quite a bit cooler. My dual MP1900+ system generates a LOT more heat (and hence uses much more electricity - which is rather expensive here in Calif.) than my OC'd 1.6 Northwood. Then again, I don't need to use the furnace much in the cooler months :) .
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Old 2002-10-30, 22:59   #6
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Actually, if you check the specs, an Athlon at a given clock rate uses pretty close to THE SAME power as a Pentium-IV. All of the current production models of those 2 CPU families spec out between 50ish and 70ish watts max dissipation.

Now, this IS a factor when you need 1.x (not quite 2, more than 1.5) Athlons to match a single Pentium-IV, for timeframes where the outside temp is significantly above freezing, and on the electric bill.

I tend to spec my systems to last 3 years on average - and take that into account when figuring cost of a system. Even WITH that factor, the P-IV isn't much if any better than the Athlon - depends on the specific models and system details. Such a comparison of the current "sweet spots" (Athlon XP1800+ and P-IV 1.8A) does slightly favor the P-IV, by my calculations - about 6% or so, *assuming* the P-IV can OC to 2.4 Mhz (most can) and the Athlon can't OC higher than 1610 (most CAN do somewhat better than that - my current one is RAM-limited to 1667).

Cost of electric will vary this, though - I've got fairly cheap "time of day rate" electric where I'm at, averaging out to about 7.5 cents per KWH. If you're in an area where electric is 10 cents or higher per KWH, the P-IV is going to be significantly more economical overall.

Oh. Wait. You did say Southern California. OK, the high electric cost is a given.

8-O

The other factor I look at, though, is that GIMP isn't going to be what I do for the rest of my life - I worked with dnet for 5 years or so, but was VERY bored with it for the last 2 of that. I suspect half or more of my current machines WILL last long enough to see me get bored with GIMP at which point I don't want to be locked into machines that are only efficient on one or two programs....
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Old 2002-10-31, 22:20   #7
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You only compare the CPUs....my reason to go for Intel was the unability of VIA to build proper chipsets. Everyone around me here who has VIA crap has problems. This can be secondary slave not running in UDMA mode, random freezes/crashes, sudden urges to reinstall windows, random malfunctions of capture drivers and the such.

Compared to my former PIII/800, my P4 2900 is about 7 times faster :D
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Old 2002-11-01, 04:05   #8
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Odd, I've had more problems with Athlon *CPUs* by a wide margin than with VIA chipsets - several of my Intel systems use various VIA chipsets.
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Old 2002-11-01, 14:04   #9
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what kinds of problems have you had with the CPUs? I've worked on mostly P4s and older AMD Durons, but I'm looking to buy a couple new AMD systems soon, and it'd be nice to have a heads-up on what to expect.
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Old 2002-11-01, 19:11   #10
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1) Physically fragile. I've lost 2 Athlons to this - that AMD has refused to replace. I've since gotten better - and a *heck* of a lot more carefull - about HS mounting technique.

I managed to skip the P-III/Celeron Flip Chip generation, though, so I don't know if Athlons are any worse that Flip-Chip Intels.

2) The retail HS/Fan is *very* marginal - totally useless unless you are in an air-conditioned environment *AND* have good case cooling. I lost 3 Thunderbird 1.4s and a 1.2 to overheating due to this, before I finally crunched the numbers myself and found this problem. I do *not* have air conditioning for my computer room - physically *can't* keep that room significantly below outside ambient with the available air conditioning capasity.

I've had 2 XP1800s die as well, but one of those was damaged by what I later determined to be a bad motherboard, and the second was destroyed during my determination that the motherboard in question was bad.


On the plus side, AMD has been very cooperative about replacing the overheating/electrical failure Athlons - except for their insistance on shipping the replacements back to me via Fed-Ex *DESPITE* my telling them repeatedly and often NOT TO DO THAT, and *WHY* Fed-Ex is a major pain in the rear AND a significant expense TO ME to deal with.

I *do* note that I saw a note somewhere that AMD is starting to *only* spec Copper-Core or All-Copper Heat Sinks on the XP and MP lines, and might even be starting to include them in their retail box Athlon product. I guess I'll see when I get the latest replacement back tonight.
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Old 2002-11-02, 08:15   #11
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You got any HS installation or other good tips for putting together an AMD system? I haven't played with these much, and I'd kind of like to avoid your mistakes if possible... :(

Oh, and Xyzzy had a good suggestion. Next time you need to have something shipped fed-ex, have them ship it to you at your work. You probably have a shipping department that Fed-Ex will ship directly to, and if you've ever recieved mail at work it's certainly to recieve packages as well...
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