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Old 2014-03-13, 21:03   #12
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Perhaps. But ridding themselves of our e-pawn is worth something, even though d6 will remain a weakness for a while.

Also, once e5 is cleared, there's an opportunity for mischief on d4 if we were to overlook their trap.

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Old 2014-03-14, 14:57   #13
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[QUOTE=cheesehead;368890]
([B]23 exf6 Rxf6 24 Rxf6 Bxf6)[/B]
No, no. We [B]eat[/B] their king side: [B]25 Bxh6 g5 26 Ne4 Kf7 27 Bxg5[/B] (not 27 Nxg5+ Kg6)
[/quote]
We eat nothing. I was tired (and followed your advice to go to bed, even before reading your reply :smile:) but I wasn't drunk. After 25.Bxh6, they do 25...bxc, we are [U]forced[/U] to capture with the pawn (otherwise Bxd4!) so 26. bxc, Nxd4! Do you dare to take the horse? There we need to play VERY, but [U][B]VERY[/B][/U] carefully, to get a draw. Otherwise they may win, as we have no material advantage anymore, and we succeeded to weaken our position. A similar reason applies for the case when they exchange the rooks in f1, worse there because we lose the sente too.

[QUOTE=cheesehead;368898]
[B]23 exf6 Rxf6[/B]
But we won't be that dumb -- we will do something else earlier and never get as far as move 26 in that line.
[/quote]
We have to, there is no better path for us
[QUOTE=cheesehead;368898]
[B]23 exf6 Rxf6 24 Bf4 bxc3[/B] No, 26 Rb1 is smarter there. <snip> calmly play 28 Bd6.
Sleep :-)
[/quote]
I will... (again, hehe, but still early here (21:30).
However, for clarity, it was the version "25 Bxb8 cxb2 [COLOR=Red][26][/COLOR] Nxb2 Rxf1 [27] Kxf1 Bxd4, now we must take Nxc4" to which you said Rb1 is smarter. After which 26...Rxf1 27 Kxf1 Bxd4, even more confusing... we play with a rook against a bishop and two pawns, not very encouraging, they still have free pawn in c4 (true, it is difficult to defend it, however). The longer path, "calmly play Bd6" after my line, sorry, but that is bad, if we don't take the pawn, then 28...Bxb2 (white moves something) black c3, a step away from transforming, or e5 is even better for them, they have two additional pawns which are both free, and a horse against a rook. That won't be easy to play for us!

[quote]
but we have five days to analyze what's next.[/QUOTE]
Luckily, yes, we still have two weeks to think this again and again, before play the next [24] move, in case they don't find out our deadlock and reply Rxf6 very fast... :smile:

The situation is not bad, it is just not so good as I expected before the last two three moves. We still can get at least a draw. But the position is not so easy as it appears to be.

For now, it is ok that we all agree that [B]23 exf6[/B] is the best move to play right now, for this turn. I would say that we just wait till after the weekend, so I could get some more time for this position.
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Old 2014-03-15, 07:16   #14
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[QUOTE=LaurV;368960]We eat nothing. I was tired (and followed your advice to go to bed, even before reading your reply :smile:) but I wasn't drunk. After[/QUOTE][B]23 exf6 Rxf6 24 Rxf6 Bxf6[/B][quote]25.Bxh6, they do 25...bxc, we are [U]forced[/U] to capture with the pawn (otherwise Bxd4!) so 26. bxc, Nxd4! Do you dare to take the horse?[/quote]Ah, I see where I went wrong: I never looked at the path where Bxh6 was followed immediately by ... bxc3.

So that h-pawn [U]is[/U] poisoned in that position!

[quote]A similar reason applies for the case when they exchange the rooks in f1, worse there because we lose the sente too.[/quote]You mean this: [B]23 exf6 Rxf6 24 Ne3 Rxf1+[/B] ?
We can reply [B]25 Rxf1[/B]. Then after [B]25 ... bxc3 26 bxc3 Nxd4? [/B]the answer to "Do you dare to take the horse?" is "[strike]Yes[/strike] Maybe later". [B]27 Ne4[/B] If 27 ... Nb3 28 Rb1.

(to be continued)

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Old 2014-03-15, 14:09   #15
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[QUOTE=cheesehead;369008]You mean this: [B]23 exf6 Rxf6 24 Ne3 Rxf1+[/B] ?
We can reply [B]25 Rxf1[/B]. Then after [B]25 ... bxc3 26 bxc3 Nxd4[/B][/quote][quote]the answer to "Do you dare to take the horse?" is "[strike]Yes[/strike] Maybe later". [B]27 Ne4[/B] If 27 ... Nb3 28 Rb1.[/QUOTE]... or 27 cxd4 Bxd4+ 28 Be3. Then what for Black?
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Old 2014-03-15, 20:38   #16
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Hey!

I've been wondering: "Why did they choose to move to f6 now? Didn't we formerly think that we had inhibited a freeing f-pawn advance by Black? Were we wrong about that, or did we inadvertently screw that up?"

Timing: [I]It was immediately after our Bd2 move.[/I]

Realization: A major factor in the troubles about which we're now speculating is: Black's dark-square bishop [I]forks our king and knight (and possibly rook) from d4[/I].

Suspicion: Our 22 Bd2 move should be annotated as: [I]22 Bd2[B]??[/B][/I], matching their earlier mistake 16 .. c4[B]??[/B], which (not coincidentally) [I]was also a mistaken abandonment of influence on the d4 square![/I].

Our best way out of this mess may be [I]simply to admit our mistake, and put our dark-square bishop back where it was protecting us from this mess: Be3. [/I] (Losing two tempi is better than losing two pawns.)

[B]23 exf6 Rxf6 24 [I]Be3[/I] Rxf1+ 25 Kxf1 [/B][B]bxc3 26 bxc3 -- with[/B][B] no drama on d4.

[/B]Then, maybe Be4 and Rb1 to bring our remaining rook into play.

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Old 2014-03-16, 02:24   #17
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Another possibility for move 24 is [B]24 Ne4[/B], which removes that knight from the bishop-fork diagonal, and threatens a later Nd6+ and Nxc8.

(to be continued)

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Old 2014-03-16, 06:53   #18
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There's also this possibility: [B]24 Re1[/B]

to avoid immediate rook swap and menace their isolated e-pawn.
Then, if Black intends to try Nxd4 and Bxd4+, he first has to move his rook out of the way -- which would leave the e-pawn attacked twice but defended only once.
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Old 2014-03-16, 07:36   #19
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List of move 24 candidates, assuming [B]23 exf6[/B]:

A) If 23 ... [B]B[/B]xf6

[B]24 Be3[/B]

[B]24 Ne3[/B]

[B]24 Ne4[/B] (If 24 ... Nxd4 25 Nxf6+)

[B]24 [/B](anything else?)

- - -

B) If 23 ... [B]R[/B]xf6

[B]24 Re1[/B] (avoid rook swap, attack isolated e6-pawn in order to burden the R/f6 with pawn-guard duty)

[B]24 Rf2[/B] (in order to retake with Nxf2 after ... Rxf2)

[B]24 Rxf6[/B] (clear up the f-file now)

[B]24 Be3[/B] (admits that Bd2 was a mistake)

[B]24 Bf4[/B] (menaces R/b8)

[B]24 Ne3[/B] (clears back rank for R/a1 to retake after ... Rxf1+)

[B]24 Nf2[/B] (aims at Ne4-d6+)

[B]24 Be4[/B] (prepares future Rb1 -- in case we don't want to move anything else on move 24)

[B]24 Ne4[/B] (gets N off the g1-c5 diagonal, prepares Nd6+)

[B]24 [/B](anything else?)
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Old 2014-03-16, 08:51   #20
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On version A), see posts #3 to #7 in this thread, if 23 ... [B]B[/B]xf6, then I think 24.Bxh6 Rh8, 25.Rxf6 Rxh6 - is the best what black can get. The 24..Rf7 (we discussed it) was worse for black. Then [B]26.Ne3![/B], they can not move the e6 pawn anyhow (lose both horses) and they can not defend it, so it is no hurry for us to take it. From here, black king is naked, and we have two pawns more, if they continue with (the only possible move) 26..Nd8

So, we can forget this, until they play it, but I don't think they will do it. This is bad/lethal for black.

On version B), if 23 ... [B]R[/B]xf6, which will be the most probably the continuation, we can at first eliminate the "bad" moves. I am trying to do this right now, in this afternoon.

Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2014-03-16 at 08:53
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Old 2014-03-16, 13:12   #21
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[QUOTE=LaurV;369086]On version A) < snip >[/QUOTE]Thank you.

I'm wrestling with a real-world problem (complexity of choosing U.S. health care plan to sign-up with because I'll turn 65 next month: not new PPACA AKA "Obamacare" -- which is for younger folks -- but already-existing Medicare for those 65 and older), so am slightly distracted. That's why I decided to make an explicit move list, to keep organized and not lose track of some good candidate.

I'll follow with a just-chess posting.

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Old 2014-03-16, 14:15   #22
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Revised & extended list of candidates for our [B]move 24[/B] (that's the move AFTER our current move choice of [B]23 exf6[/B], whose posting deadline is [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=368817&postcount=132"]Wednesday, March 19 10:01 UT[/URL]):

(I've tried to summarize our analysis of following moves, from our preceding posts, but need your doublechecks.)

A) If 23 ... [B]B[/B]xf6

[B]24 Bxh6[/B]
If 24 ... Rh8 25 Rxf6 Rxh6 26 Ne3 and we're a pawn up, plus threaten to win more, but must watch out for ... bxc3 and ... Rb2 etc. counterplay.

[B]24 Be3[/B] (admits that Bd2 was a mistake)

[B]24 Ne3[/B]

[B]24 Ne4[/B]
If 24 ... Nxd4 25 Nxf6+ and 26 cxd4

[B]24 [/B](anything else?)

- - -

B) If 23 ... [B]R[/B]xf6

[B]24 Re1[/B] (avoid rook swap, attack isolated e6-pawn in order to burden the R/f6 with pawn-guard duty. If Black intends to try Nxd4 and Bxd4+, he first has to move his rook out of the way. )

[B]24 Rxf6[/B] (resolves the f-file tension now)

[B]24 Be3[/B] (admits that Bd2 was a mistake)
If 24 ... Rxf1+ 25 Kxf1 bxc3 26 bxc3 -- with no drama on d4.Then, maybe Be4 and Rb1 to bring our remaining rook into play.

[B]24 Bf4
[/B]If 24 ... Rb6 25 Bc7. So, [B]24 ... Ra8 25 Ne3[/B], possibly continuing 25 ... g5 26 Bc7 (threatening 27 Nxc4 and 28 Nd6++) Ra7 27 Bb6 Ra8 28 Nxc4. If 28 ... Rxf1+ 29 Rxf1 and Black must defend carefully.
If 24 ... e5 25 dxe5 Rf8 (not ... Rf5 26 Ne3 or ... Rf7 26 e6) 26 e6 (not Ne3 g5) Ra8 27 Ne3 and maybe 27 ... g5 28 Bc7 Ra7 29 Bb6 Ra8 30 Nxc4 etc.
If 24 ... bxc3 25 Bxb8 cxb2 26 Rb1 Rxf1+ 27 Kxf1. If 27 ... Bxd4 28 Bd6 But we still have to analyze 25 ... c2 in this line.
[B]
24 Ne3[/B]
If 24 ... Rxf1+ 25 Rxf1 bxc3 26 bxc3 h5 (if 26 ... Rb2 27 Nxc4) 27 Nxc4

[B]24 Nf2[/B] (aims at Ne4-d6+)

[B]24 Ne4[/B] (gets N off the g1-c5 diagonal, prepares Nd6+)

[B]24 Be4[/B] (prepares future Rb1 -- in case we don't want to move anything else on move 24)

24 Rf2 (in order to retake with Nxf2 after ... Rxf2) -- probably not good

[B]24 [/B](anything else?)

Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2014-03-16 at 14:28
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