White 17

cheesehead · 2013-12-06, 22:26

I'll try to remember to post a link, early in this and our future move threads, to their most recent announcement in the Vote Chess thread, for time reference during our future move deliberations.

cheesehead · 2013-12-13, 17:49

Their most recent move (16 ... c4): [URL]http://mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=361971&postcount=103[/URL]

Our deadline: Friday, December 20, 9:54 am GMT = 2:54 PM Thai time = 4:54 AM EST = 3:54 AM CST

- -

We seem to have been discussing a Black ... c4 only after some other 16th move. They, of course, have played it now at the proper time.

Some candidates for us now:

[B]17 d4[/B]

Makes our e-pawn sort of a dagger, but shuts out our Bc5 and Nd4 possibilities

[B]17 dxc4
[/B]
But then 17 ... bxc4 nicely opens up the b-file for their rook.

[B]17 Nf2[/B]

Surely they wouldn't be so accommodating as to play 17 ... cxd3 allowing us lots of possibilities after 18 Nxd3 ?
OTOH this would bring up our back-row knight for further adventure on e4 or g4 (Nf2-g4-h6 looks attractive!) --- but we could do that anyway with 18 Nf2 after 17 d4.
OTOOH Nf2 leaves our B/e3 without a defender after their Nd5 or Nf5

[B]17 Bc5[/B]

If 17 ... cxd3 18 Nf2 d2 19 R/ad1

- -

[I]But here's an interesting alternative:[/I]

[B]17 Ng5[/B] threatening to take the f-pawn!

If 17 ... f6 or 17 ... f5 then 18 exf6 piece-fork

If 17 ... Nxe5 18 d4 Nd3 is rather invasive but 19 Nxf7 is even more so. (19 ... O-O 20 Nh6+ or 19 ... Rf8 20 Nd6+)

If 17 ... Nxe5 18 d4 Ng4 19 Nxf7

Or 17 ... Bxe5 18 d4 Bc7 (or ... Bg7) 19 Nxf7

If 17 ... cxd3 18 Nxf7

17 ... O-O may be better for Black. 18 d4 looking at Nf2-e4

[i]Or, maybe best of all,[/i]

17 ... Nf5

Needs more analysis.

17 ... Nf5 18 d4 O-O 19 maybe g4

cheesehead · 2013-12-13, 23:24

Continuing analysis:

[B]17 Ng5 Nf5[/B]

Try: [B]18 Bb6[/B] (threatening 19 Bxc6+ Bxc6 20 Bxa5)
But 18 ... cxd3 leaves our e-pawn hanging, and 19 Bxc6+ Bxc6 20 Bxa5 Bxe5 doesn't look good for us.

Try: [B]18 d4[/B] (preserving pawns and the Ne4-f6 threat)
18 ... O-O 19 Bd2 (to preserve threats at g5-h5)
then if 19 ... f6 20 Nxe6
if 19 ... h6 20 Ne4

Try: [B]18 g4[/B]
18 ... Nxe3 19 Nxe3 O-O 20 d4 (preserving pawns and the Ne4-f6 threat) then what's good for Black here?

- - -

[B]17 d4[/B] may be best for us, but needs more analysis.

If [b]17 d4[/b] O-O 18 what?

If [b]17 d4[/b] Nf5 18 what?

cheesehead · 2013-12-14, 08:32

More speculation:

[B]17 Ng5 Nf5 [/B][B]18 d4 O-O 19 Bd2

[/B]19 ... Nce7 20 Ne4 Nd5 21 Ndf2 h5

cheesehead · 2013-12-15, 00:09

Another idea: deter Nf5

[b]17 g4[/b]

17 ... h6 But that also allows deterrence of Ng5.

- - -

Back to:

[b]17 d4[/b]

[b]17 ... O-O[/b]
Speculation: 18 Ng5 Nf5 19 Ne4 Nce7 20 g4 Nh4 21 Bg5
or 20 ... Nxe3 21 Nxe3 h6
or 20 Nc5 Bxg2 21 Kxg2 Rfd8 22 Bg5

[b] 17 ... Nf5[/b]
18 Ng5 O-O transposes into preceding speculation.

cheesehead · 2013-12-15, 15:02

[QUOTE=cheesehead;361992]
[I]But here's an interesting alternative:[/I]

[B]17 Ng5[/B] threatening to take the f-pawn!

< snip >

If 17 ... Nxe5 18 d4 Nd3 is rather invasive but 19 Nxf7 is even more so. (19 ... O-O 20 Nh6+ or 19 ... Rf8 20 Nd6+)[/QUOTE]I didn't give 18 ... Nd3 the respect it deserved. It's [I]very[/I] invasive, but can be rooted out.

[B]17 Ng5 Nxe5 18 d4 Nd3 19 Nxf7 O-O[/B] (not 19 ... Rf8 which loses a bishop after 20 Nd6+) [B]20 Nh6+[/B]
Then after 20 ... Bxh6 21 Bxh6 Rxf1+ 22 Bxf1 Nf5 23 Bg5 Bf3 (23 ... Rf8 24 Bxd3 cxd3 25 Nf2 d2 26 Rd1) 24 Rb1 Bxd1 25 Bxd3 Bf3 26 Bf1
Black has a weak e-pawn and we have the two bishops, which should allow us a slight advantage.

cheesehead · 2013-12-16, 23:43

Sorry for the multiple posts, but this position has me really intrigued!

(BTW thanks, guys, for [B]15 e5[/B]. That was just the right time for that push. I totally missed seeing that after the pawn exchange we'd have the f-file half-opened so beautifully for our castled rook -- that's one of my blind spots.)

- -

I should summarize:

[B]17 d4[/B] - 5
[B]17 Ng5[/B] - 2 (exciting but probably ultimately unsound and losing)

[B]17 dxc4[/B] - minus 5

LaurV · 2013-12-17, 02:30

Man, thank you for all the effort you do there, and I am very sorry I did not participate yet. You may not know, if you don't read some threads here, I already posted somewhere that I have some friends from around Chicago visiting me for Christmas (they are already here, living in our house, and will leave after the New Year), we didn't see each other for about 7 years and you imagine we have lots to talk and show, going here and there, showing them around, etc. The wives, which are already a small nuisance :razz: may became a [B]BIG[/B] one if I start playing chess in the evening when I arrive home. Moreover, the past weekend I had lots of trouble installing a new rig for factoring (see the mfakto related threads) and no time for chess. Not to mention that since 5th of December, when SWMBO stayed home (Thai national holiday, king's birthday), my chess board magically disappeared from the main room where it was set, and an (artificial - no way to get a natural one here) Christmas tree appeared instead of it...

So, if I don't get some time to look to the position today or tomorrow (I am not promising anything!) then we go by your analysis. I am trusting you as being the best player in our former or actual team, including myself (sorry WMH :blush:)

WMHalsdorf · 2013-12-17, 04:00

Got buried in some work. After looking over the analysis presented along with what little I looked at (mostly deeper into Ng5 which is another minefield) I would have to rate d4 as the best move at this time.

cheesehead · 2013-12-17, 06:52

Guys,

Don't feel you have to apologize at length for attending to real-life matters instead of this game! Just do what you have to do (especially during this holiday season), and come back to chess only when you have done all more-important things.

I wasn't expecting either of you to necessarily reply rapidly ... or perhaps at all! I know how busy one can get with important real-life matters, especially during the holiday season. It so happens that my holiday schedule became less crowded (for no unpleasant reason) that I had expected, so I had leisure to push around chess pieces.

LaurV,

I'm always prepared to post our next move to the "Vote Chess game 2" thread if you haven't posted anything here or there by, say, a day before the deadline. So, please fulfill your real-life obligations without worrying about this game.

We're a _team_, and we each contribute what we can at any particular time. I almost certainly have more leisure time than either of you for the next couple of weeks.

I find our current game position fascinating, and have enjoyed following out some speculations and presenting them so you could just review them quickly. :-)

- - -

Back to why I came here to post again tonight:

I looked more at Black's potential responses after [B]17 d4[/B], and found that their best might be 17 ... f6. (They certainly wouldn't wait for us to get 18 Ng5 in before pushing their f-pawn.)

[B]17 d4 f6[/B]

[B]18 exf6 [/B]is probably our best here, but there is still the possibility of the adventurous:

[B]18 Bf4[/B] g5 19 exf6 (simultaneous attack on B, N and R! I don't think I've ever had that possibility in any previous game I've played) gxf4 20 fxg7 Rg8 21 gxf4 Rxg7 and we've gained a pawn ... at the expense of having a rook aimed at our King! But the position is still fluid if we want to live dangerously...

For instance,
22 Ng5 Kd7 (or 22 ... h6? 23 Nxe6 Rg6 24 Nc7+ Kd7 25 Nxb5 Nxd4 26 Nxd4 Rxg2+ 27 Kh1 Rxb2+ 28 Nf3 Rd2 29 Kg1 and now either ... Bxf3 or ... Rd-moves (but not ... Rd3 30 Ne5+))
23 Nf2 Ng6 24 Nfe4 threatening 25 Nc5+

or

18 ... fxe5 (Now be careful -- some permutation of captures could allow some surprise -- I'm not going through all of them yet) 19 Bxe5 Nxe5 20 Nxe5 Bxe5 21 dxe5 Bxg2 22 Kxg2 Nc6 23 Re1 Rd8 24 Nf2 and now 24 ... Rd5 25 Ng4 Ke7 or 24 ... Rf8 (24 ... O-O just takes the king away from where it's needed) 25 Ng4 Ke7 This might be drawish.

- - -

Anyway, I now see our main line as:
[B]
[B]17 d4 f6 [/B]18 exf6 Bxf6 19 Bf4[/B] and Black's best is probably 19 ... Rd8 20 Nf2 and we can threaten with Rae1, Ne4 or g4.

cheesehead · 2013-12-17, 11:37

[QUOTE=cheesehead;362262]
Anyway, I now see our main line as:
[B]
[B]17 d4 f6 [/B]18 exf6 Bxf6 19 Bf4[/B] and Black's best is probably 19 ... Rd8 20 Nf2 and we can threaten with Rae1, Ne4 or g4.[/QUOTE]There's another possibly good move for Black's 17th:

[B]17 ... Nd5[/B]

18 Ng5 O-O 19 Bd2 Nce7 20 Ne4 Nf5 21 Nc5 Bc6 22 Nf2 but Black probably has something better along that way.

18 Bd2 f6 19 exf6 Bxf6 20 Ne3 Nxe3 21 Bxe3 looks okay for us
If 20 ... Nce7 21 Ng4 and 22 Rae1

- -

All in all, if Black challenges our e5 pawn with f6, he's left with a backward isolatee at e6.

I intend to post

[B]17 d4[/B]

as our move about/after 0300 GMT Thursday Dec 19 (= 0800 Thai time = 2200 EST Wednesday Dec 18) unless I hear otherwise from you guys before then.

2013-12-06, 22:26	#1
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²×3×641 Posts	White 17 I'll try to remember to post a link, early in this and our future move threads, to their most recent announcement in the Vote Chess thread, for time reference during our future move deliberations.

2013-12-13, 17:49	#2
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²×3×641 Posts	Their most recent move (16 ... c4): [URL]http://mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=361971&postcount=103[/URL] Our deadline: Friday, December 20, 9:54 am GMT = 2:54 PM Thai time = 4:54 AM EST = 3:54 AM CST - - We seem to have been discussing a Black ... c4 only after some other 16th move. They, of course, have played it now at the proper time. Some candidates for us now: [B]17 d4[/B] Makes our e-pawn sort of a dagger, but shuts out our Bc5 and Nd4 possibilities [B]17 dxc4 [/B] But then 17 ... bxc4 nicely opens up the b-file for their rook. [B]17 Nf2[/B] Surely they wouldn't be so accommodating as to play 17 ... cxd3 allowing us lots of possibilities after 18 Nxd3 ? OTOH this would bring up our back-row knight for further adventure on e4 or g4 (Nf2-g4-h6 looks attractive!) --- but we could do that anyway with 18 Nf2 after 17 d4. OTOOH Nf2 leaves our B/e3 without a defender after their Nd5 or Nf5 [B]17 Bc5[/B] If 17 ... cxd3 18 Nf2 d2 19 R/ad1 - - [I]But here's an interesting alternative:[/I] [B]17 Ng5[/B] threatening to take the f-pawn! If 17 ... f6 or 17 ... f5 then 18 exf6 piece-fork If 17 ... Nxe5 18 d4 Nd3 is rather invasive but 19 Nxf7 is even more so. (19 ... O-O 20 Nh6+ or 19 ... Rf8 20 Nd6+) If 17 ... Nxe5 18 d4 Ng4 19 Nxf7 Or 17 ... Bxe5 18 d4 Bc7 (or ... Bg7) 19 Nxf7 If 17 ... cxd3 18 Nxf7 17 ... O-O may be better for Black. 18 d4 looking at Nf2-e4 [i]Or, maybe best of all,[/i] 17 ... Nf5 Needs more analysis. 17 ... Nf5 18 d4 O-O 19 maybe g4 Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-12-13 at 18:06

2013-12-13, 23:24	#3
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 17014₈ Posts	Continuing analysis: [B]17 Ng5 Nf5[/B] Try: [B]18 Bb6[/B] (threatening 19 Bxc6+ Bxc6 20 Bxa5) But 18 ... cxd3 leaves our e-pawn hanging, and 19 Bxc6+ Bxc6 20 Bxa5 Bxe5 doesn't look good for us. Try: [B]18 d4[/B] (preserving pawns and the Ne4-f6 threat) 18 ... O-O 19 Bd2 (to preserve threats at g5-h5) then if 19 ... f6 20 Nxe6 if 19 ... h6 20 Ne4 Try: [B]18 g4[/B] 18 ... Nxe3 19 Nxe3 O-O 20 d4 (preserving pawns and the Ne4-f6 threat) then what's good for Black here? - - - [B]17 d4[/B] may be best for us, but needs more analysis. If [b]17 d4[/b] O-O 18 what? If [b]17 d4[/b] Nf5 18 what? Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-12-13 at 23:39

2013-12-15, 15:02	#6
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 1E0C₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=cheesehead;361992] [I]But here's an interesting alternative:[/I] [B]17 Ng5[/B] threatening to take the f-pawn! < snip > If 17 ... Nxe5 18 d4 Nd3 is rather invasive but 19 Nxf7 is even more so. (19 ... O-O 20 Nh6+ or 19 ... Rf8 20 Nd6+)[/QUOTE]I didn't give 18 ... Nd3 the respect it deserved. It's [I]very[/I] invasive, but can be rooted out. [B]17 Ng5 Nxe5 18 d4 Nd3 19 Nxf7 O-O[/B] (not 19 ... Rf8 which loses a bishop after 20 Nd6+) [B]20 Nh6+[/B] Then after 20 ... Bxh6 21 Bxh6 Rxf1+ 22 Bxf1 Nf5 23 Bg5 Bf3 (23 ... Rf8 24 Bxd3 cxd3 25 Nf2 d2 26 Rd1) 24 Rb1 Bxd1 25 Bxd3 Bf3 26 Bf1 Black has a weak e-pawn and we have the two bishops, which should allow us a slight advantage. Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-12-15 at 15:14

2013-12-16, 23:43	#7
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 7692₁₀ Posts	Sorry for the multiple posts, but this position has me really intrigued! (BTW thanks, guys, for [B]15 e5[/B]. That was just the right time for that push. I totally missed seeing that after the pawn exchange we'd have the f-file half-opened so beautifully for our castled rook -- that's one of my blind spots.) - - I should summarize: [B]17 d4[/B] - 5 [B]17 Ng5[/B] - 2 (exciting but probably ultimately unsound and losing) [B]17 dxc4[/B] - minus 5 Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-12-16 at 23:58

2013-12-14, 08:32	#4
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²×3×641 Posts	More speculation: [B]17 Ng5 Nf5 [/B][B]18 d4 O-O 19 Bd2 [/B]19 ... Nce7 20 Ne4 Nd5 21 Ndf2 h5

2013-12-15, 00:09	#5
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²×3×641 Posts	Another idea: deter Nf5 [b]17 g4[/b] 17 ... h6 But that also allows deterrence of Ng5. - - - Back to: [b]17 d4[/b] [b]17 ... O-O[/b] Speculation: 18 Ng5 Nf5 19 Ne4 Nce7 20 g4 Nh4 21 Bg5 or 20 ... Nxe3 21 Nxe3 h6 or 20 Nc5 Bxg2 21 Kxg2 Rfd8 22 Bg5 [b] 17 ... Nf5[/b] 18 Ng5 O-O transposes into preceding speculation.

2013-12-17, 02:30	#8
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 24166₈ Posts	Man, thank you for all the effort you do there, and I am very sorry I did not participate yet. You may not know, if you don't read some threads here, I already posted somewhere that I have some friends from around Chicago visiting me for Christmas (they are already here, living in our house, and will leave after the New Year), we didn't see each other for about 7 years and you imagine we have lots to talk and show, going here and there, showing them around, etc. The wives, which are already a small nuisance :razz: may became a [B]BIG[/B] one if I start playing chess in the evening when I arrive home. Moreover, the past weekend I had lots of trouble installing a new rig for factoring (see the mfakto related threads) and no time for chess. Not to mention that since 5th of December, when SWMBO stayed home (Thai national holiday, king's birthday), my chess board magically disappeared from the main room where it was set, and an (artificial - no way to get a natural one here) Christmas tree appeared instead of it... So, if I don't get some time to look to the position today or tomorrow (I am not promising anything!) then we go by your analysis. I am trusting you as being the best player in our former or actual team, including myself (sorry WMH :blush:) Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-12-17 at 02:44 Reason: ugly typo, grrr...

2013-12-17, 04:00	#9
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	Got buried in some work. After looking over the analysis presented along with what little I looked at (mostly deeper into Ng5 which is another minefield) I would have to rate d4 as the best move at this time.

2013-12-17, 06:52	#10
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 1E0C₁₆ Posts	Guys, Don't feel you have to apologize at length for attending to real-life matters instead of this game! Just do what you have to do (especially during this holiday season), and come back to chess only when you have done all more-important things. I wasn't expecting either of you to necessarily reply rapidly ... or perhaps at all! I know how busy one can get with important real-life matters, especially during the holiday season. It so happens that my holiday schedule became less crowded (for no unpleasant reason) that I had expected, so I had leisure to push around chess pieces. LaurV, I'm always prepared to post our next move to the "Vote Chess game 2" thread if you haven't posted anything here or there by, say, a day before the deadline. So, please fulfill your real-life obligations without worrying about this game. We're a _team_, and we each contribute what we can at any particular time. I almost certainly have more leisure time than either of you for the next couple of weeks. I find our current game position fascinating, and have enjoyed following out some speculations and presenting them so you could just review them quickly. :-) - - - Back to why I came here to post again tonight: I looked more at Black's potential responses after [B]17 d4[/B], and found that their best might be 17 ... f6. (They certainly wouldn't wait for us to get 18 Ng5 in before pushing their f-pawn.) [B]17 d4 f6[/B] [B]18 exf6 [/B]is probably our best here, but there is still the possibility of the adventurous: [B]18 Bf4[/B] g5 19 exf6 (simultaneous attack on B, N and R! I don't think I've ever had that possibility in any previous game I've played) gxf4 20 fxg7 Rg8 21 gxf4 Rxg7 and we've gained a pawn ... at the expense of having a rook aimed at our King! But the position is still fluid if we want to live dangerously... For instance, 22 Ng5 Kd7 (or 22 ... h6? 23 Nxe6 Rg6 24 Nc7+ Kd7 25 Nxb5 Nxd4 26 Nxd4 Rxg2+ 27 Kh1 Rxb2+ 28 Nf3 Rd2 29 Kg1 and now either ... Bxf3 or ... Rd-moves (but not ... Rd3 30 Ne5+)) 23 Nf2 Ng6 24 Nfe4 threatening 25 Nc5+ or 18 ... fxe5 (Now be careful -- some permutation of captures could allow some surprise -- I'm not going through all of them yet) 19 Bxe5 Nxe5 20 Nxe5 Bxe5 21 dxe5 Bxg2 22 Kxg2 Nc6 23 Re1 Rd8 24 Nf2 and now 24 ... Rd5 25 Ng4 Ke7 or 24 ... Rf8 (24 ... O-O just takes the king away from where it's needed) 25 Ng4 Ke7 This might be drawish. - - - Anyway, I now see our main line as: [B] [B]17 d4 f6 [/B]18 exf6 Bxf6 19 Bf4[/B] and Black's best is probably 19 ... Rd8 20 Nf2 and we can threaten with Rae1, Ne4 or g4. Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-12-17 at 07:24

2013-12-17, 11:37	#11
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²·3·641 Posts	[QUOTE=cheesehead;362262] Anyway, I now see our main line as: [B] [B]17 d4 f6 [/B]18 exf6 Bxf6 19 Bf4[/B] and Black's best is probably 19 ... Rd8 20 Nf2 and we can threaten with Rae1, Ne4 or g4.[/QUOTE]There's another possibly good move for Black's 17th: [B]17 ... Nd5[/B] 18 Ng5 O-O 19 Bd2 Nce7 20 Ne4 Nf5 21 Nc5 Bc6 22 Nf2 but Black probably has something better along that way. 18 Bd2 f6 19 exf6 Bxf6 20 Ne3 Nxe3 21 Bxe3 looks okay for us If 20 ... Nce7 21 Ng4 and 22 Rae1 - - All in all, if Black challenges our e5 pawn with f6, he's left with a backward isolatee at e6. I intend to post [B]17 d4[/B] as our move about/after 0300 GMT Thursday Dec 19 (= 0800 Thai time = 2200 EST Wednesday Dec 18) unless I hear otherwise from you guys before then. Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-12-17 at 11:56

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