20120706, 10:47  #1 
Dec 2003
Hopefully Near M48
2·3·293 Posts 
Statics Question, in the form of a storey
 Part 1 
Alice: Hello Bob. So glad you could spare a few minutes out of your busy day. Bob: No problem Alice. It's on my way back home anyway. Now what did you ask me to come for again? Some kind of new online game you found? A: That's right. It's a very simple game really. All you do is click this button, and the game runs an animation that ends with either Victory or Defeat. B: Very simple indeed. How did you get interested in something so trivial? A: You know, that's the same thing I thought until I started playing; and all of a sudden I was hooked. I can't explain it. It's as if I'm a character in some story someone wrote just to make a point. B: Weird... Anyway, what seems to the problem? A: Something's wrong with the game. I keep losing. B: Excuse me? A: You heard me. I keep losing. Every single time I try. Not once have I gotten the Victory message. B: But you said this is a game of chance, right? These things happen. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. A: Right, sometimes. Not always. If you always lose then something's wrong. B: Look, we've had this conversation before. What would you like me to do? A: Can you try this game for me please? B: I don't see how that's going to... Ok... What do I have to do? A: First create an account by registering here B: Alright, giving them my spamcollecting email address... Ready to start now. Trying once... Defeat. Again... Defeat. Yet again... Victory. There we go! See, there's nothing wrong with the game. A: Guess you're right, although it feels odd... How you managed to get a win on the 3rd try whereas I haven't been able to get one in scores upon scores of attempts. B: Like I said, all luck of the draw. Well... I need to get going soon; I have an appointment in an hour. How about we play 10 times each, and call it a day. A: Sure. Thanks. [Alice and Bob alternate playing the game, each on his/her account. After playing 10 rounds each, Bob has 3 victories, Alice none.] A: Oh dear. B: Oh wow... Sorry Alice. Today's just not your lucky day. A: It's ok... B: I can see you're not happy. Let me try to make it up to you. I'm free for a few hours tomorrow. How about I drop by and we play to 100 each? A: Really? You don't have to... Thanks a lot! B: No problem.  Part 2  A: Thanks so much for coming. B: Hey, happy to help. Let's get started shall we? A: Sure. B: Like I said last time, we play 100 times each alternating. I stick with my account; you stick with yours. A: Got it. [After 100 rounds each, Bob gets 17 wins, Alice 0.] A: Noo. Nooooo... B: Oh wow... I'm sorry. Really, I am... A: How could this be? B: Today's just not your lucky day. These things happen from time to time with random events. Sometimes, you just get long dry streaks... A: You're sure that's all it is? Dumb luck? What if there's something else? B: Like what? A: Accountspecific luck, maybe? B: No. Why would the game developers do that? A: I don't know. B: It doesn't sound likely... How about we check the game's official forums? A: Sure. B: Searching... Searching... Here we are, a post from the head admin on exactly this topic: "There is no accountspecific luck in this game. Every round has an equal probability of ending in a win. This probability is independent of what account is playing, how many turns have been played, the outcomes of previous runs, everything. It is a universal constant." A: I see... Does it say what that constant is? B: Let me check... Nope. Looks like the game devs are keeping that to themselves. But that's beside the point. As you can see, this settles it. There is no accountspecific luck. Everyone has the same chance of winning. A: You're sure? What if that admin just isn't telling the truth, or there's some bug in the programming? I mean... my losing streak... B: Alice, we've been over this. This is the way randomness and life in general is. Sometimes, you just go on really long streaks. You have to learn to accept it. Ok? A: I... guess... B: I see that look in your eye. You don't. Sigh... Look... I haven't got much else to do this weekend. How about I come by again, and we play the game up to a thousand? A: Really? Thanks so much! B: My pleasure. I'm certain that with this many runs, you'll not only get a win, but roughly as many as me. A: You're certain? B: Hehehe. Well, almost certain... Just one thing: Don't jump to any conclusions until we've both played 1000 each, ok? Because this is a test for 1000 runs and not one less. A: Alright  Part 3  A: Good morning Bob. B: Good morning Alice. Let's get right to it. I brought my laptop this time to save time. You play on your own computer on your account, I'll play on my computer on my account. A: Sounds good. B: Let's play to 500 today, and then tomorrow we'll play from there to 1000. A: Alright. [8 hours later] B: Hello again Alice. I got 90 wins in 500 tries. How about you? A: Zero. B: ... ... You remember what we agreed about not jumping to conclusions before this little experiment is over, right? A: Yes. B: Ok, see you tomorrow. A: Good night, and thank you. [At the end of the next day, Bob has won 191 times out of 1000. Alice? Still 0.] B: Alice, I'm sorry to say this, but you are well and truly the unluckiest gamer I have ever seen. I mean it. I truly am sorry for you... A: [Eyes closed, wincing in pain and frustration]... B: Really, I've never seen this before. Such an incredibly long streak of bad luck. Even now, I can hardly believe a mere mortal can be so atrociously unlucky. A: Is that what you think this is? Nothing but just bad luck? You still don't think accountspecific luck is to blame? B: Well, no. The head admin was very clear. This game has no accountspecific luck. A: But what if he's wrong? What if there's a flaw in the coding? It's not like we have the code in front of us and can verify it for ourselves. B: Alice, random number generators are not exactly a new thing. It's implausible that the game devs could mess up something so simple. And what reason would the head admin have for lying about something like this... Wait... scratch that last point... A: ... And my thousandstrong losing streak? B: I've said this many times before and I'll say it again. A 1in10 chance of success, for example, is not a guarantee that the event will happen if you make 10 attempts. There are no guarantees. A 1in10 probability event could fail to show itself in a hundred, a thousand, even a million runs. Nothing is for certain. A: Yes, yes... But aren't such long streaks very improbable. B: Improbable, yes. But not impossible. A: .... B: I see you still don't see things my way. After such a shocking, horrific run of bad luck, I can hardly blame you. A: .... B: I'll tell you what. Let's settle this once and for all. Let's play to 10,000. I'll come here every weekend until we get there. A: Thanks... Thanks a lot. B: I bet that after we've both reached 10,000, this nightmarish fluke of yours will be just a distant memory, and the difference between our win counts will be well within the expected margin of statistical error. A: And I bet that my streak will be alive and stronger than ever. B: Let's bet $100, ok? A: Agreed  Part 4  [Days turn to weeks. Weeks turn to months. As promised, Bob visits every weekend to play, until at last, one day, the experiment finally concludes. At the end of it all, Bob has 2012 wins in 10,000 tries. Alice has still won none.] B: ... I never... imagined... I'd have to do this... [Reaches into his wallet, pulls out a hundred dollar bill, gives it to Alice.] A: Thanks... But Bob... There's something I want more... B: What is that? A: An admission from you, that I was right, that accountspecific luck is real, that in this game some accounts have a better chance of winning than others. B: ... I'm sorry Alice, but I don't believe that. A: After all this, after ten thousand runs and this large a difference, you still believe this is all just dumb luck? That my inability to get even a single win is just a superimprobable fluke? B: I'm afraid that's exactly what I think. A: ... A: What would it take for you to change your mind? What If we played up to 100,000, you got 20,086 wins and I got 0, or something close to that? B: That wouldn't happen. A: And why not? B: Or rather, it almost almost almost almost almost certainly wouldn't happen. The odds against running ten thousand independent, identically distributed random variables twice getting a result like that... It's like one of those "not in a trillion trillion times the size and lifetime of the Universe" sort of things. A: But if it did happen... Just hypothetically... You would still believe what the head admin said, that there is no accountspecific luck? B: Err... Well... Yes. As astronomically low as the probability is, it still wouldn't be zero. So it would still be consistent with what the admin said, that every account has the same chance of winning every time. A: .... B: But again, what you're talking about is an extremely improbable scenario with a practically negligible chance. A: My streak though... B: ... is nothing but another ultraimprobable, ultraunlucky and I understand ultrafrustrating fluke. Still, a fluke is a fluke; it can end anytime. A: ... B: You could get your first win 100 tries from now, 50 tries, 20 tries... Heck, maybe even on your next try. A: ... B: In fact, judging by our combined record of 2012 victories in 20,000 tries, I think there's a very decent chance you'll get your first win within your next 10 tries. A: Would you like to bet on that? B: Sorry, but I'm a little short on cash right now from a certain bet I just lost. Haha. A: ... B: ... A: Sorry Bob, but it looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree. B: Just as I thought... Good day. A: Good day. 
20120706, 10:55  #2 
Jun 2003
4842_{10} Posts 
Is there a question in there somewhere?

20120706, 11:00  #3 
Dec 2003
Hopefully Near M48
2·3·293 Posts 
Well, that was fun, and a bit tiring. I didn't know about the 10,000 character per post limit, which prevented me from asking my question in the original post. Anyway, my question was this: Is there a statistical test that could vindicate Alice in that argument, to some prescribed degree of confidence? I heard once of something called the ttest, or something like that, but I don't think it fits this situation exactly...
And a more complicated version of the question: Imagine that 10,000,000 people hear this story, and decide to form a "distributed gaming" project to test out for themselves whether that game has accountspecific luck or not. Each person runs the game 10,000 times, records the number of wins, and reports it. When everyone has finished, a plot is made of (number of wins out of 10,000) vs. (number of people with this number of wins). If accountspecific luck is not real, we'd expect the plot to look something like a bell curve with a peak at the (a priori unknown) mean. If accountspecific luck is real, the plot will deviate from that; for instance, it could have an shape. Is there a statistical test that given a plot, says whether or not to reject the null hypothesis, with some fixed degree of confidence? (Obviously I could have asked in a much smaller number of words. But what would be the fun in that? ) Thanks Last fiddled with by jinydu on 20120706 at 11:31 
20120706, 11:26  #4 
Banned
"Luigi"
Aug 2002
Team Italia
2^{3}·599 Posts 
It looks like a good start of a SF novel... :) I liked it!
Will Alice and Bob fall in love with each other? Is there anything not working on Alice's computer? Does Alice live in a "psychic negative zone" that influences reality? If so, how much do psychic powers influence statistics as unnoticed dependent variables? (walks out, gazing at the sky while still blabbering...) 
20120706, 11:57  #5 
Undefined
"The unspeakable one"
Jun 2006
My evil lair
176D_{16} Posts 
I think Alice is the site admin (or perhaps in good with the admin) and is scamming Bob for the $100. Is Alice from Nigeria by any chance?

20120706, 12:37  #6 
Romulan Interpreter
Jun 2011
Thailand
21674_{8} Posts 
What the hack? Switch those dammit accounts, I play for you, you play for me. We stop if more then 20 games were played and Alice has two wins (on Bob account) and Bob still none or any other version (like Bob making points on Alice account) would settle it. I suspect Alice hold the mouse click too lung

20120706, 13:25  #7 
May 2003
Belgium
2·139 Posts 
Can't she just create a new account and play with that one, after all, Bob managed to play the game immediately...

20120706, 18:34  #8 
May 2004
New York City
2^{3}·23^{2} Posts 
You didn't specify how long each game takes, but wouldn't having Alice
play and lose an infinite number of games (in a finite amount of time, say by a diminishing geometric ratio) provide a positive confidence level that the game is "rigged""? I would say no finite number of strictly losing games would provide a statistically "certain" result. 
20120706, 18:54  #9 
"Mike"
Aug 2002
2^{3}·3·331 Posts 

20120707, 00:36  #10  
"Mark"
Feb 2003
Sydney
1000111101_{2} Posts 
Quote:
Quote:
Last fiddled with by markr on 20120707 at 00:47 

20120712, 09:47  #11  
Dec 2003
Hopefully Near M48
2·3·293 Posts 
Just checking in to this thread again...
Perhaps I should have been even more explicit. I'm looking for the name of a specific test that allows one to accept or reject the null hypothesis, which is that Alice and Bob have the same probability of winning. For example, had the game admin said "Everyone always has a 20% probability of winning", this null hypothesis could have been tested with the chisquared test. Using Alice's data over 10,000 tries, this would give a chisquared value of (02000)^2/2000 + (100008000)^2/8000 = 2500, which means one can reject the null hypothesis with an uncertainty of less than 1 part in 4.6 x 10^544. What I'm looking for is a test that can allow me to perform an analogous calculation for my question. Quote:


Thread Tools  
Similar Threads  
Thread  Thread Starter  Forum  Replies  Last Post 
Primes of the form (b+1)*b^n+1 and b^n+(b+1)  sweety439  sweety439  162  20200515 18:33 
Does n have the form (a^p+b^p)/(a+b) for p > 2?  carpetpool  carpetpool  1  20170130 13:36 
integers of the form (2 ^ t +1) / (2 ^ p + x)  allasc  Math  10  20110126 18:43 
Factors of the Form 7 mod 8  JuanTutors  Data  3  20040329 02:31 
I will do factoring form M50 to M60 is this OK?  andi314  Lone Mersenne Hunters  1  20030217 19:31 