 mersenneforum.org Elliptic factoring with points *NOT* on the curve
 Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read 2006-12-15, 10:07 #1 bongomongo   2×23×181 Posts Elliptic factoring with points *NOT* on the curve The elliptic curve factoring algorithm seems to work with points *NOT* on the curve. Pick a random POINT=[x,y] that is not on the curve in Fp and perform point addition and multiplication as if POINT were on the curve. The point at infinity is hit, giving a cyclic group structure with order different from the points on the curve. As in this example: <--> Code: p=19; a=14;b=10; e1=ellinit([0,0,0,a,b]); x0=random(p);y0=random(p);while(ellisoncurve(e1,Mod(1,p)*[x0,y0]),x0=random(p);y0=random(p)); po1=Mod(1,p)*[x0,y0];print(" point=",po1," on curve=",ellisoncurve(e1,po1)," ellap=",ellap(e1,p));for(i=1,p+2,po2=centerlift(ellpow(e1,po1,i));print(i," ",po2)); <--> point=[Mod(5, 19), Mod(2, 19)] on curve=0 ellap=3 1 [5, 2] 2 [-3, 5] 3 [2, 4] 4 [4, -9] 5 [-2, -1] 6 [3, 7] 7 [3, -7] 8 [-2, 1] 9 [4, 9] 10 [2, -4] 11 [-3, -5] 12 [5, -2] 13  14 [5, 2] 15 [-3, 5] 16 [2, 4] 17 [4, -9] 18 [-2, -1] 19 [3, 7] 20 [3, -7] 21 [-2, 1] Points not on the curve with arbitrary even order seem to be generated: Code: gp > po=ellpow(e1,[x,y],3);x0=random(p);tt=polrootsmod(subst(numerator(po),x,x0),p);while(length(tt)<2,x0=random(p);tt=polrootsmod(subst(numerator(po),x,x0),p));po2=[Mod(1,p)*x0,tt ] %244 = [Mod(8, 19), Mod(1, 19)] gp > ellpow(e1,po2,2*3) %245 =  ellisoncurve(e1,po2) %246 = 0 gp > Some tests results that may be screwed by testing with small number: 1. Looks like all [x,y] not on the curve give group structure for primes with good reduction. 2. There are points not on the curve with arbitrary even order. 3. Factoring not on the curve gives similar results with factoring on the curve (at least to 10^20). If this is right, what is known about the order of random [x,y] on a random curve? (The classic algorithm has some restrictions) Attached is modification to the elliptic curve factoring algorithm. <--> Code: `\\ This program is distributed under the terms of the GPL v2. \\ The full text of the GPL is available at: \\ http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt \\ Modification to the elliptic curve factoring algorithm working with points \\ *NOT* on the curve \\ Usage: \\ gp \\ \r FILENAME { facreal3(p,cu)= local(e1,x0,y0,a,b,tt,i,po1,po2,o,c1,cp,l1,po); a=random(p); b=random(p); po=x^3+a*x+b; while(gcd(poldisc(po),p)!=1,a=random(p); b=random(p); po=x^3+a*x+b;); e1=ellinit([0,0,0,a,b]); for(c1=1,cu, print(c1); x0=random(p); y0=random(p); while(ellisoncurve(e1,Mod(1,p)*[x0,y0]), x0=random(p); y0=random(p); ); po1=Mod(1,p)*[x0,y0]; po2=po1; print(" on curve=",ellisoncurve(e1,po1)); cp=0; while(cp 2006-12-15, 12:17 #2 akruppa   "Nancy" Aug 2002 Alexandria 246710 Posts This is pushing my understanding of elliptic curves... but would a point not on E(p) be on the twist curve? Then it would be clear why you're getting group structure again. Alex   2006-12-15, 13:38   #3
Unregistered

65078 Posts Quote:
 Originally Posted by akruppa This is pushing my understanding of elliptic curves... but would a point not on E(p) be on the twist curve? Then it would be clear why you're getting group structure again. Alex

In the example with:
p=19;
a=14;b=10;

There is a point of order 13.

The twisted curve has order 23 and the original curve has order 17.  2006-12-15, 14:00   #4
Unregistered

23D116 Posts Quote:
 Originally Posted by akruppa but would a point not on E(p) be on the twist curve? Then it would be clear why you're getting group structure again. Alex
If the coding is right: The pseudo point with constructed order of 6 [8,1] is not on any twist in F19  2006-12-21, 17:50 #5 akruppa   "Nancy" Aug 2002 Alexandria 2,467 Posts I asked Pierrick Gaudry, who has worked on elliptic curve arithmetic before, about this and he replied simply that he didn't know about this idea, either. Someone may well have investigated this before, but if so, it's not very commonly known, apparantly. Sounds like an interesting topic to delve into some more. Alex   2006-12-21, 18:19   #6
R.D. Silverman

"Bob Silverman"
Nov 2003
North of Boston

22×1,877 Posts Quote:
 Originally Posted by akruppa I asked Pierrick Gaudry, who has worked on elliptic curve arithmetic before, about this and he replied simply that he didn't know about this idea, either. Someone may well have investigated this before, but if so, it's not very commonly known, apparantly. Sounds like an interesting topic to delve into some more. Alex
It is simple.

For a curve in the form y^2 = x^3 + ax + b, the parameter b does
not occur in the arithmetic when adding two points. So given
y^2 = x^3 + Ax + B for given A,B, a point (x1, y1) not on this curve
is instead on the curve y^2 = x^3 + Ax + B', where B' != B.

You are still adding points, but it is on a DIFFERENT curve from the one
you expect.  Thread Tools Show Printable Version Email this Page Similar Threads Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post burrobert GMP-ECM 6 2012-11-08 13:05 Raman Math 8 2009-04-13 19:20 Dirac Factoring 11 2007-11-01 14:01 Unregistered Information & Answers 2 2007-01-18 17:13 philmoore Math 131 2006-12-18 06:27

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