mersenneforum.org  

Go Back   mersenneforum.org > Prime Search Projects > Riesel Prime Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2015-07-01, 22:12   #749
Kosmaj
 
Kosmaj's Avatar
 
Nov 2003

2·1,811 Posts
Default

Team in name only??

Well please scroll to the top of this page where you can find that it's page 68 of a project strated in May 2006, where we tested k=17 all the way from n=205k to n=4M. And now you reserve a range from 4M, find a quick prime and don't credit that team. If it's in the name only how did you know to start from 4M? Why not from n=205k, the last publicly reported limit, or n=2930k, right after the last found k=17 prime, or at any other random n?? That's the reason for my comment, as I clearly said in my first post. The location of sieve files is very well known, and indeed availalbe on this very forum.

In conclusion, for your quick find the fact that the current limit is 4M has been of equal if not of higher importance than sievie files. You gave credit to sieve projects but for some unknown reason, I can say alien to common sense, you failed to give credit to this project.

And regarding the mountains, please take that hike on your own.
Kosmaj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-01, 23:28   #750
Batalov
 
Batalov's Avatar
 
"Serge"
Mar 2008
Phi(4,2^7658614+1)/2

27×71 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmaj View Post
Available Files
Including all candidates in the 3-4M range, including already tested ones.
Please help yourself by extracting the range you want to test.
Extensively sieved by Psieve (latest update of August 19, 2013)
k17_3M.zip (39353 candidates)

FFT length of all tests: 192k.
Indeed, well known and very helpful. (forget about that it is too old, and includes unnecessary tests; it ends at 4M.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimB View Post
Suspended Sieves
rsp1M_20110731.abcd - (145,973,485 terms) p=100P
rsp2M_20110731.abcd - (145,950,160 terms) p=100P
rsp3M_20110731.abcd - (145,554,795 terms) p=100P
rsp4M_20140622.abcd - (140,244,994 terms) p=400P
rsp5M_20140622.abcd - (140,261,896 terms) p=400P
rsp6M_20140622.abcd - (140,230,058 terms) p=400P
Click the links, "help yourself by extracting the range you want to test."
Just don't suggest me to use the time machine from few days ago into today when links were fixed.

Obviously, you haven't read my message before replying to it, or at best, glanced over the text and so far was not able to process it.

But, quoting from the final scene of 'American Beauty', "don't worry... you will someday."
Batalov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-02, 09:10   #751
Thomas11
 
Thomas11's Avatar
 
Feb 2003

35618 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batalov View Post
Taking 4000-4600. (I'll get this from the ABCD file.)
Well, I thought that by placing a reservation here you were accepting the terms and rules of our project and that it is just common decency to give credit to the project if one found a prime (like in "real" science where you cite your sources and give credit to other's data).
As Kosmaj already pointed out: Providing the proper sieve files is just one part of the team work, coordinating the search and keeping track of our efforts is the other.

Regarding the missing input file(s) for k=17: There was not much interest by others than myself since about half a year. So, perhaps, I should be the person to be blamed - for picking the final block without updating the input file.

To state it clear:
We highly appreciate the huge effort you spent into our project (as we appreciate everyone's effort). Knowing the ranges you have done recently for k=15 and k=17 will save me (and, of course, other too) a lot of cpu hours, which we can spend into other Ks or team drives. We just thought you were a decent fellow...

Last fiddled with by Thomas11 on 2015-07-02 at 09:11
Thomas11 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-03, 19:24   #752
Batalov
 
Batalov's Avatar
 
"Serge"
Mar 2008
Phi(4,2^7658614+1)/2

238016 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas11 View Post
Well, I thought that by placing a reservation here you were accepting the terms and rules of our project and that it is just common decency to give credit to the project if one found a prime (like in "real" science where you cite your sources and give credit to other's data).
As Kosmaj already pointed out: Providing the proper sieve files is just one part of the team work, coordinating the search and keeping track of our efforts is the other.

Regarding the missing input file(s) for k=17: There was not much interest by others than myself since about half a year. So, perhaps, I should be the person to be blamed - for picking the final block without updating the input file.

To state it clear:
We highly appreciate the huge effort you spent into our project (as we appreciate everyone's effort). Knowing the ranges you have done recently for k=15 and k=17 will save me (and, of course, other too) a lot of cpu hours, which we can spend into other Ks or team drives. We just thought you were a decent fellow...
Ah, well, as long as you want to state things clear:

Quote:
Well, I thought that by placing a reservation here you were accepting the terms and rules of our project
This is a trespassing charge. Here is why it is bogus.
What you are trying to say is that "we are searching for Riesel primes. That's our claim and we are searching for all of them.
Anyone who searches for Riesel primes is accepting the terms and rules of our project.
They are either doing it with us or stealing from us."
I call bullshit.
You cannot claim all the continent of Africa yours, as you set your foot on it. You can claim a certain land as far as you reasonably staked it and are using it, irrigating it, and growing crops on it. This is called a use claim.
Your use claim is clearly established at n<4M and is in common sense valid. The project (you) has shown effort of actually doing work on it for the last few years at maybe 0.1-0.2M per half year and someday you will finish it. To claim this much is fine, but to claim everything is for a proverbial dog in the manger.
For n>4M you have absolutely nothing. You have not sieved. The sieve you could have provided comes from external sources.
You have not made workunits for anyone to join in.
So, I could reward your project's lazyiness, procrastination, and lethargic indifference towards anyone who is outside the "old group that still remembers better, livelier times" by suddenly nearly doubling the projects past cumulative throughput.
By suddenly nearly doubling the project's weight as thanks for what? For absolutely nothing? Excuse me but I am not that charitable.

"Providing the proper sieve files is just one part of the team work..." - that's non-existent.
"...coordinating the search and keeping track of our efforts is the other." - Coordinate all you want within your domain. Souldn't be too hard with barely one message per month (and another week to add it to the top post). Don't make people laugh by saying "All Riesel primes are belong to us".

I informed you that I will take 4-4.6M by using all of my and externally existing resources (RSP files). These are all credited. Got nothing from you guys. And you've lost nothing; well, you could lose time - if you went there, where the work is already done. Be my guest, go there. It will only take you a few years.

Quote:
We just thought you were a decent fellow...
This is defamation. I cannot let it slide. Take it back or you will be fools in my book.

You are confusing charity and decency. They are not the same.
Someone who gives a buck to a homeless person is charitable, but not automatically decent. Could be a complete bastard.
Someone who doesn't, - may be uncharitable, but it would be very rude to call one not decent.
(This is an illustration of charity of course. Not that RPS is homeless. Or is it? It does have nothing of its own.)
There are other charities. To some of them, you give (I gave away more blood than I now have), and some others you avoid like a plague (in some cases literally, for example, feeding squirrels or giving to unemployed drug addicts).

To state it clear and listen to someone and actually hear what they are saying are two good, very different things.
Batalov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-03, 20:28   #753
pinhodecarlos
 
pinhodecarlos's Avatar
 
"Carlos Pinho"
Oct 2011
Milton Keynes, UK

5×929 Posts
Default

Serge, why are you now acting like this?
Would you act differently if you didn't have access to 400/500 cores? I can clear understand you can do whatever you want with that processing power, you can easily destroy a 10 year project. You have more CPU power than all RPS members together so again it is very easy to damage a project.

I am very sad.

Carlos
pinhodecarlos is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-03, 21:49   #754
Kosmaj
 
Kosmaj's Avatar
 
Nov 2003

2×1,811 Posts
Default

This is a major nonsense Batalov. You got from us the fact that k=17 is already at n=4M, and you started your search from there.

Indeed a sad day for the prime searching community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batalov View Post
Got nothing from you guys.
Kosmaj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-04, 07:45   #755
gd_barnes
 
gd_barnes's Avatar
 
May 2007
Kansas; USA

26·3·53 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmaj View Post
Hi Batalov,

... starting from n=4M, not including the project team which tested all n<4M, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmaj View Post
There is no argument.
Just the sense and spirit of the team work, or in your case the lack of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Batalov View Post
Just curious, if one wanted to contribute to the "Team In Name Only", where would they get the workunit files?

Ah, that's right. Nowhere. Here, in the spirit of the team, attached.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmaj View Post
Team in name only??

...

In conclusion, for your quick find the fact that the current limit is 4M has been of equal if not of higher importance than sievie files. You gave credit to sieve projects but for some unknown reason, I can say alien to common sense, you failed to give credit to this project.

And regarding the mountains, please take that hike on your own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Batalov View Post
Indeed, well known and very helpful. (forget about that it is too old, and includes unnecessary tests; it ends at 4M.)

Click the links, "help yourself by extracting the range you want to test."
Just don't suggest me to use the time machine from few days ago into today when links were fixed.
...
RPS, why the lack of customer service? You have a huge customer in Serge. He's probably the biggest or 2nd biggest RPS has ever had and you say that his action makes no sense and then you call him a non-team player? Shouldn't it be a wake up call to take a look in the mirror? He complained about your lack of service, that is not providing him with an easily accessible sieve file for just this k in the first post of this thread, a very valid complaint, and you come back on him with even more insults? You should have quickly apologized to him even if he said mean things to you. After all, he's the customer. Even more quickly all drives sieve files should have been quickly checked to make sure that they were up to date but especially the k=17 one for n=4M-6M. At that point, maybe (just maybe) he might have transferred the prime to RPS. He then would be likely to report all future primes found here to RPS.

It's not a sad day for prime searching. It's simply a project losing customers due to lack of customer service. If you don't provide a good product the customers will go elsewhere. You can insult NPLB/CRUS all that you want and say how much smaller they are than RPS but our sieve files are usually up to date. If they aren't, we expect someone to complain and we will quickly be on it. It's just good customer service.

What do you think he will do now? Likely one of two things: (1) He'll leave and you'll have lost him forever or for a very long time. (2) He'll continue searching here and not reporting primes as RPS. If you're very lucky he'll do neither but I wouldn't bet on it.

#2 could potentially do serious damage to your project. Good luck!

Edit: I see that you still have not posted an updated sieve file for k=17 in the first post here. Wow.

Last fiddled with by gd_barnes on 2015-07-04 at 08:04 Reason: edit
gd_barnes is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-04, 08:46   #756
rajula
 
rajula's Avatar
 
"Tapio Rajala"
Feb 2010
Finland

32·5·7 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas11 View Post
Well, I thought that by placing a reservation here you were accepting the terms and rules of our project and that it is just common decency to give credit to the project if one found a prime (like in "real" science where you cite your sources and give credit to other's data).
This comment bothers me a bit. I have always thought about posting in the forum to be about informing about ones future work to avoid possible overlap. Does providing such information (morally) bind one to acknowledge the project as "an author" (in academic terms)? In a math paper I would rather cite the past work and possibly thank in the acknowledgements if help was given on some level.

Sometimes I have wondered from the total opposite side if I should cite the projects here. With only random contributions without taking any sieve files from the project I don't feel much as part of the group forming the project. The question in my mind has been: Am I allowed to put the project in the proof-code? (add as an author after only some discussions). Most of the times I have decide to add the project as it seems to be the convention.


As for the current disagreement: I don't see RPS having any right to ask it to be automatically added to the proof-codes, but seeing such huge prime (a trademark of Serge ) going without adding RPS to the proof-code is shocking. Echoing gd_barnes: that should be more of a wake up call if anything.
rajula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-04, 12:16   #757
pepi37
 
pepi37's Avatar
 
Dec 2011
After milion nines:)

3·19·23 Posts
Default

I dont know why you arguing?
Kosmaj, remember case of "my friend" : he found prime , without reporting reservation, and make many progress never reporting RES here.
Why, because nobody knows what he process.
Serge in other hand is "perfect guy". He reserved, he found and he reported. Period. Sieve is not made by us, sieve is made by Primegrid. If you ask to add RPS to proof code, then ask also to add Primegrid to proof code.
And dont know the law, but I dont think that prime numbers can be RPS, or Primegrid primes. It belongs to person that find prime. All other thing are irrelevant.
But Serge can find and download sieve file from net, take range and process it. Never report on this page that he do the llring. He didnot do that!
He make clear reservation and found prime!
And this is main reason why I left all forums and all prime number projects. I make own sieve,and when I found prime I am owner.
Not any forum, not any person. only me!
pepi37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-07-12, 10:42   #758
Thomas11
 
Thomas11's Avatar
 
Feb 2003

3·5·127 Posts
Default

3900-4000k complete, no primes.
Thomas11 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-06-23, 20:27   #759
pepi37
 
pepi37's Avatar
 
Dec 2011
After milion nines:)

3·19·23 Posts
Default

I would like to reserve this K to 6M
Last post was from Thomas and he say it is done up to 4M
At https://www.rieselprime.de/ziki/Riesel_prime_17 state it is over to 5M
Batalov find prime at 4107544 so it is searched to at least 4107544
So can I assume start point 5M is OK?
pepi37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools


All times are UTC. The time now is 07:55.

Sat Aug 15 07:55:29 UTC 2020 up 2 days, 4:31, 0 users, load averages: 2.61, 2.30, 2.17

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum has received and complied with 0 (zero) government requests for information.

Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation.
A copy of the license is included in the FAQ.