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Old 2008-10-28, 18:06   #45
wblipp
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwb52z View Post
It has to go somewhere.
Wrong.

In the period before death, that energy had to come from somewhere. After death that energy is no longer being created through metabolic processes.
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Old 2008-10-28, 23:46   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wblipp View Post
After death that energy is no longer being created through metabolic processes.
Yes -- in regard to human metabolic processes -- but (absent modern mortuarial practices) many of the billions (trillion?) of critters living inside each of us (outnumbering our body cells; they're really small) continue their own metabolizing of materials (previously formed by human metabolism) available to them and generating energy from that.

Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2008-10-28 at 23:58
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Old 2008-10-29, 02:29   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wblipp View Post
Wrong.

In the period before death, that energy had to come from somewhere. After death that energy is no longer being created through metabolic processes.
The energy that existed in your body right before you died was active, and as I said it cannot be destroyed, and does seem to disappear upon death, so where does it go if it isn't being fed to produce more of itself? If it can't be destroyed, it still has to be there somehow or in some form somewhere in existence. I just want to know where it is now, meaning afterward. Even if the energy in your body is exhausted, it still isn't destroyed, if I understand the term "destroy" correctly, so where is it?
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Old 2008-10-29, 06:21   #48
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Heat
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Old 2008-10-29, 12:29   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwb52z View Post
The energy that existed in your body right before you died was active, and as I said it cannot be destroyed, and does seem to disappear upon death, so where does it go
The same place that the energy that existed in your body one hour earlier, and one year earlier went. davieddy is correct - it went to heat. The reason you are warmer than ambient is that heat escaping. This energy isn't a caged quantity that has been staying put and must go someplace. It is a constant flow that has been cut off at the source. Your question is like asking "where does the column of water go when I turn off the kitchen faucet? There was a column of water just before I shut it off, and it had to go someplace. A scientific way of thinking about this it that maybe the column of water transformed into a marching band that is inspiring the dust bunnies to revolution."
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Old 2010-04-08, 00:38   #50
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Here's an article about a possible explanation for "near-death experiences" (NDEs).

(While a near-death experience is not the same as life after death, some folks think the reported perceptions of people who have had a NDE are indicative of life after death. My response is that when we study such things scientifically, we find that no supernatural cause is necessary to explain them.)

"'Near-death experience' explained by carbon dioxide: study"

http://www.physorg.com/news189887148.html

Quote:
People who have "near-death experiences," such as flashing lights, feelings of peace and joy and divine encounters before they pull back from the brink may simply have raised levels of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the blood, a study suggests.

Near-death experiences (NDEs) are reported by between 11 and 23 percent of survivors of heart attacks, according to previous research.

But what causes NDEs is strongly debated. Some pin the mechanisms on physical or psychological reasons, while others see a transcendental force.

Researchers in Slovenia, reporting on Thursday in a peer-reviewed journal, Critical Care, investigated 52 consecutive cases of heart attacks in three large hospitals.

The patients' average age was 53 years. Forty-two of them were men.

Eleven patients had NDEs, but there was no common link between these cases in terms of age, sex, level of education, religious belief, fear of death, time to recovery or the drugs that were administered to resuscitate them.

Instead, a common association was high levels of CO2 in the blood and, to a lesser degree, of potassium.

Further work is needed to confirm the findings among a larger sample of patients, say the authors, led by Zalika Klemenc-Ketis of the University of Maribor.

Having an NDE can be a life-changing experience, so understanding its causes is important for heart-attack survivors, they say.

. . .
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Old 2010-04-08, 02:09   #51
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I tried to find that article. Went to the journal website, searched for the authors' names, the article title, etc... but couldn't find it. Can someone who has more luck and patience than me try to find a link to it?

Quote:
...we find that no supernatural cause is necessary to explain them
Of course not. Firstly, because it is very hard to prove the necessity of an explanation. Secondarily (at least in my view), an after-life is not super-natural.
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Old 2010-04-08, 04:04   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesehead View Post
...we find that no supernatural cause is necessary to explain them
Of course not. Firstly, because it is very hard to prove the necessity of an explanation. Secondarily (at least in my view), an after-life is not super-natural.
But the antecedent of "them" is near-death experiences, not after-life.

I posted about NDEs in this thread because "some folks think the reported perceptions of people who have had a NDE are indicative of life after death", so there is a logical link (and I couldn't find any other more suitable existing thread). Insofar as it is possible to explain NDEs by natural causes without any reference to after-life, NDEs are not indicative of life after death.

As to whether "an after-life is not super-natural", can you provide or point to any objective evidence to support a claim that an after-life exists as anything other than thoughts in human minds?

Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2010-04-08 at 04:15
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Old 2010-04-08, 04:18   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesehead View Post
Insofar as it is possible to explain NDEs by natural causes without any reference to after-life, NDEs are not indicative of life after death.
Well I guess we can also say that NDEs are not indicative of no life after death either. It seems to me that NDEs and LaD can be entirely separate things, with one neither proving or disproving the other.
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Old 2010-04-08, 04:32   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux View Post
I tried to find that article. Went to the journal website, searched for the authors' names, the article title, etc... but couldn't find it. Can someone who has more luck and patience than me try to find a link to it?
At the bottom of http://www.physorg.com/news189887148.html is:

Quote:
More information: The effect of carbon dioxide on near-death experiences in out-of-hospital cardiac arrest survivors: a prospective observational study, Zalika Klemenc-Ketis, Janko Kersnik and Stefek Grmec, Critical Care (in press), http://ccforum.com/
I presume "(in press)" means it's not yet published. But that appears to contradict
Quote:
Originally Posted by physorg.com
Researchers in Slovenia, reporting on Thursday in a peer-reviewed journal, Critical Care,
Perhaps there's some mixup in implied date.

I, too, tried the search at ccforum.com without success.
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Old 2010-04-08, 04:49   #55
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Meandering offtopic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallow_water_blackout

It is interesting that our (primary) "need to breathe" is not because we need oxygen.
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