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Old 2007-04-03, 19:40   #23
Uncwilly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET_ View Post
Do you think I deserve eternal flames just because my mind is too logic...
Not all Christians believe that that is what happens, not by a long shot. The modern 'hell' concept comes from, some misapplication of some parts of the Bible and from Dante.
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Old 2007-04-04, 00:28   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfgoode View Post


Well Luigi,

What I wrote was a commentary on the passage by a Dr. M.D DeHaan

Eternal flames is a fallacy and so is everlasting punishment.

Else where it is written that one will be judged by ones works.

This applies to non believers and after much study I have come to believe that hell is an eternal state too but not eternal flames. Eternal flames is a purification stage in life after death. The real Hell is a bottomless Pit reserved only for Satan and his followers which they will be cast down into eventually.

I am writing ad lib and have no references right now.

Please dont worry about your materialistic life. If you have given a cup of water to some deserving and thirsty person you have given it to Christ. If you have done some good works for others you have done it to Christ.

My personal experience is that Christ is a very mystical person. You cant see Him but he is always there by your side-ALWAYS.

He says 'I will never leave you nor forsake you'

Like you, I have often thought of the millions in India who have never even heard the name of Jesus. Whats in it for them? Are they condemned in oblivion? Not at all!. Christ is in everything and every human being.

Jesus boiled the 10 rigorous commandments to just 2.
1) Love God
2) Love your neighbour.

If you have loved your neighbour you have loved Christ.

When I say Christ I mean the mystical Jesus and He is the personification of love.

What the humble and sublime Christ wants is an acknowledgement.

He has clearly said 'If you acknowledge Me I will acknowledge you to the Everlasting Father. If You deny me I will deny you to the Father.'

Is that too difficult for anyone.?

Mally
Mally, I don't know what Bible you read, but mine says that without Faith it is impossible to please God, so unbelievers can't please God no matter what they do. Also, where in the world do you get anything about "Hell isn't forever or flames, but it's a purification" stuff? That's not stated anywhere in the scripture that I know. BTW, God doesn't forgive people who never had a chance to know, but it DID used to be that way. The Bible says something to the effect of "God used to 'wink' at ignorance" but then changed to where everyone had to seek salvation. As for "boiling down" things, that doesn't mean they aren't to be followed, except for the Sabbath which only applies to Jewish law. That's a whole other discussion anyway.
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Old 2007-04-06, 10:20   #25
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Lightbulb Ethics and Religion !

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET_ View Post
I can't speak for anyone, it's clear for me.

But it's a matter of ethics, not religion. In my opinion, Jesus speech drives the audience towards an ethical path, not a religious one.

Ths is why I consider nothing the Church, or anyone who tries to speak and make decisions for me, in my name.

From an ethical point of view, Christ said "If you ethically live your life, you'll have on Earth a thousand times what you gave". Only after He mentions "and the Promise of life after death"

But I don't think this post should be driven by Religion: the very question is "what happens after our deaths?"

The very answer is "We just don't and can't know".

Game over...

Luigi


I quite agree with you Luigi, lets not mix the way of life that Jesus taught with the religion and rituals taught by churches.

Its a real pity that the early church and then its subsequent branches have distorted the simple message of Christ.

Today it being Good Friday the church here is gearing for a 3 hour service to make the 13 stations of the Cross where the journey of Christ to the cross is enacted and recalled. They have a huge 8- 10 foot figure of Christ which will be pulled up to the giant cross and hymns of repentance will be sung.
I dont have to step out of my house as it is all visible from my window.
Now what will you call this spectacle ?

First of all it is all idolatry and secondly a mass spectacle. A crowd of well nigh 4000 Roman Catholics will be attending. It starts now and will last for 3 gory hours. This is religion and ritual NOT the Way that Jesus preached. I suppose a spectacle greater than this will be enacted in St Peters square in Rome with the Pope and his college of cardinals dressed in scarlet robes will be the principle actors and it will be televised all over the World.

Now Jesus was never a spectacle maker. He lived a simple humble life and died the way He foretold to his disciples. The only thing he asked his disciples to do in his remembrance was the breaking of bread in fellowship, an example he gave at the last supper he had with them.

For the non believers he asked his Father to forgive them for they 'know not what they do' and that too on the cross in agony.

Yes we have come a long way from those fateful days.

I will be back to answer to the other posts in a short while.

Mally
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Old 2007-04-06, 10:38   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwb52z View Post
Mally, I don't know what Bible you read, but mine says that without Faith it is impossible to please God, so unbelievers can't please God no matter what they do.
The problem with an extensive collection of writings as the Bible or the coran for that matter, it is possible to find many thoughts on similar subjects and it may happen that they seem to be in contradiction with each other. It would be better specify the exact part of the Bible you quote (and perhaps tell us which edition you use.)

That said the different groupings of Christians tend to quote a specific part of the Bible about specific subjects and their choice says much on their world vision.
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Old 2007-04-06, 11:47   #27
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Quote:
Now Jesus was never a spectacle maker.
I agree. Wasn't he a carpenter? Did they even have glasses back then?
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Old 2007-04-06, 16:50   #28
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Lightbulb Faith vs. works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S485122 View Post
It would be better specify the exact part of the Bible you quote (and perhaps tell us which edition you use.)

That said the different groupings of Christians tend to quote a specific part of the Bible about specific subjects and their choice says much on their world vision.


Well I have several Bibles but I use as my standard the King James Version for its beauty in language and facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwb52z
Mally, I don't know what Bible you read, but mine says that without Faith it is impossible to please God, so unbelievers can't please God no matter what they do. [/QUOTE]

Here are a few Quotations from the Gideons International pocket Bible. I use it as it is compact and handy for quotes. It should certainly make you think!

Please refer to James 2:14.

'What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?' [An example follows.]

Verse 17: 'Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead'

Verse 20: 'But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?' [A question follows]

Verse 24 : 'You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only' [He gives the example of Rahab the harlot]

Verse 26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.'



Mally
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Old 2007-04-06, 20:59   #29
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Guess I'm going to hell in a handcart.
I like snappy threads.
And one liners that Mally doesn't understand

At least I listened to Bach's St John Passion this
Good Friday afternoon. But I expect God will put it
down to me liking music rather than giving me any credit for it.
(The Bastard).

David

Last fiddled with by davieddy on 2007-04-06 at 21:08
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Old 2007-04-07, 07:42   #30
mfgoode
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Cool Bach!



As a former violinist, I would have expected you to play it even though it may have been off key

Mally
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Old 2007-04-07, 11:40   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfgoode;103139'What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?' [An example follows.

Verse 17: 'Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead'

Verse 20: 'But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?' [A question follows]

Verse 24 : 'You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only' [He gives the example of Rahab the harlot]

Verse 26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.'
If I understand well, these quotations mean that faith is not a sufficient condition to pleasure the god of the Bible. But Jwb52z said that faith was a necessary condition to attain that goal. As far as I can see the statements are nor incompatible.

The emphasis put on the necessity of faith is telling about the world vision as I said earlier. It would mean for instance that all people who did not come in contact with the Bible are doomed even if they did not have a chance to embrace the true faith. I will not expand on what it would mean for people like me who were educated as catholics and renounced all faith, after all they have only themselves to blame :-)

But to come back to the original topic of the thread I would not want life after death, infinity is too long not to be deadly boring :-)

Last fiddled with by S485122 on 2007-04-07 at 11:41
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Old 2007-04-14, 16:44   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S485122 View Post
If I understand well, these quotations mean that faith is not a sufficient condition

But to come back to the original topic of the thread I would not want life after death, infinity is too long not to be deadly boring :-)


Well S48... How long would you expect this life to last?

I am 68 yrs. and all my yesteryears have passed like a flash in the pan. To me they were far too short!

Mally
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Old 2007-04-15, 07:53   #33
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Mally,

I agree that life is all to short ! But infinity is definitely too long. Members of this forum should know something about big numbers, but those big numbers are nothing compared to infinity : you could moserise* a googolplex a googolplex number of times, even it it is a rather large number it still is nothing compared to infinity.

Jacob

* (where 2 moser is two with a polygon with 2 pentagon sides around it in circle notation)
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