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Old 2020-08-02, 09:57   #34
retina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinhodecarlos View Post
Why not cover all by "it"?
Because it won't make any difference. "Fixing" the wording won't solve the problem.
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Old 2020-08-02, 10:10   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retina View Post
Because it won't make any difference. "Fixing" the wording won't solve the problem.
Exactly.
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Old 2020-08-02, 10:12   #36
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Originally Posted by pinhodecarlos View Post
Seconded that Paul.


Why not cover all by "it"?
Does Portuguese have the neuter gender? I thought, but would be pleased to be better educated, that Portuguese only has two genders.

Added in edit:

Of course I know the answer to that rhetorical question. I made sure to learn some basic Portuguese grammar and vocabulary before going on vacation to the Algarve some years back. My point is that your suggestion just doesn't work for many people.

Last fiddled with by xilman on 2020-08-02 at 10:19
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Old 2020-08-02, 10:25   #37
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Only two genders but will have to check with my aunt, Portuguese teacher, if there is now a neuter gender.
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Old 2020-08-02, 10:29   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinhodecarlos View Post
Seconded that Paul.


Why not cover all by "it"?
You are a native Portuguese speaker, I believe. How would you translate each of "saĝ.ani" and "saĝ.bi" into your native tongue?

This is not a rhetorical question. I do not know the answer and would genuinely like to learn more Portuguese.
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Old 2020-08-02, 10:41   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
You are a native Portuguese speaker, I believe. How would you translate each of "saĝ.ani" and "saĝ.bi" into your native tongue?

This is not a rhetorical question. I do not know the answer and would genuinely like to learn more Portuguese.

I cannot understand your words, is that Sumerian language? Is that slave?


Edit:


If it is slave then Portuguese translation is:
female gender as ''escrava''
male gender as ''escravo''

Last fiddled with by pinhodecarlos on 2020-08-02 at 10:47
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Old 2020-08-02, 10:58   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinhodecarlos View Post
I cannot understand your words, is that Sumerian language? Is that slave?


Edit:


If it is slave then Portuguese translation is:
female gender as ''escrava''
male gender as ''escravo''
Ah, you need to read my earlier post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
Outside of Indo-European there are languages which have two genders but their equivalents of "man", "woman", "God" and "Goddess" are all of the same gender. Sumerian is a specific example with which I am familiar. Those words are of the animate gender, which is used only for human and divine beings. Everything else, whether animal, vegetable or mineral, is of the inanimate gender. Specific example: 𒊕𒀀𒉌 (saĝ.ani) means both "his head" and "her head" whereas 𒊕𒁉(saĝ.bi)
means "its head".
So how would you translate a word which mean both "his head" and "her head"? In what way does the translation of "its head", where the head may belong to either a male animal, a female animal or be that of a stone statue, differ from the foregoing --- and makes clear the distinction between the two words?

(Grrr. The forum software is screwing with UTF-8 characters again. Sergey and/or Mike: can you re-apply the fix which worked so well last time please?)

Last fiddled with by xilman on 2020-08-02 at 11:05 Reason: Fix UTF-8
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Old 2020-08-02, 12:34   #41
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Was teasing regarding covering all by it....

Just got confirmation, only two genders in Portuguese despite Latin having the neuter one.

The head example is a tricky one. If you consider the head as the leader then you have head as noun having two genders but you will have to identify the gender before the noun, like:

“The leader” - o líder, o cabecilha - male gender
“The leader” - a líder, a cabecilha - female gender
(Note that cabecilha has female gender...lol)

If you consider head from anatomy, it is on female gender but to identify if it comes from a female or male you will need to add your “the” before or/and “his” or “hers” after, as in English.

So our “the” can be defined for two genders using “o” and “a”.
We can use “a cabeça“, the head, for the statue.
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Old 2020-08-02, 12:56   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinhodecarlos View Post
Was teasing regarding covering all by it....

Just got confirmation, only two genders in Portuguese despite Latin having the neuter one.

The head example is a tricky one. If you consider the head as the leader then you have head as noun having two genders but you will have to identify the gender before the noun, like:

“The leader” - o líder, o cabecilha - male gender
“The leader” - a líder, a cabecilha - female gender
(Note that cabecilha has female gender...lol)

If you consider head from anatomy, it is on female gender but to identify if it comes from a female or male you will need to add your “the” before or/and “his” or “hers” after, as in English.

So our “the” can be defined for two genders using “o” and “a”.
We can use “a cabeça“, the head, for the statue.
In this example, "head" is an anatomical term.

In English, "its head" is a straightforward translation, true to the original inanimate gender.

It is impossible, in English, to translate the animate gender faithfully. I would have to use "his head" or "her head" or "his or her head" depending on the context in which it appears. Each of these draws a distinction which is completely absent from the original.
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Old 2020-08-02, 14:09   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
I would have to use "his head" or "her head" or "his or her head" depending on the context in which it appears.
What about "their head"?
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Old 2020-08-02, 16:35   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalsall View Post
What about "their head"?
The word which we are trying to translate is third-person singular animate.

Your suggestion is admirable for third person plural "their heads". Sumerian, like English, does not distinguish between its genders there. The suffix 𒀀𒉈𒉈 (a.ne.ne) is used for the 3rd person plural genitive case.

The use of "their" in English for the singular is attested since the 14th century. It fell out of common use some centuries ago in favour of gender-unspecific "his" and gender-differentiating "his", "her" and "his or her". Rather recently, within our lifetimes, it has been making a comeback. In decades to come it may perhaps be the standard usage.

Nonetheless, you haven't answered my question: how are those translations to be made into languages such as French or Portuguese? As I noted, there is no such thing as "our" language here.
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