mersenneforum.org  

Go Back   mersenneforum.org > Fun Stuff > Lounge

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2018-09-20, 16:23   #1
Dr Sardonicus
 
Dr Sardonicus's Avatar
 
Feb 2017
Nowhere

1101111111112 Posts
Default On the origin of language ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
If you ever come to Haarlem, it's worth going on the little tour of the Corrie ten Boom house as well,
where she hid Jewish people from the Nazis during the Second World War.

(And, yes, the Harlem in New York is named for our Haarlem, which is much older!)
Ah, yes, New York, or at least the south end of Manhattan Island, was once "New Amsterdam."

The "aa" is also in the old spelling of "Catskill," namely "Kaatskill," which appears in, e.g. Rip Van Winkle by Washington Irving, and the word "kraal," which became the US word "corral."
The "aa" and "oo" often indicate Dutch words; also the hard-c or k-sound of "sch." The word "school" exhibits both features.

The k-sounding "sch" led to an "aha" moment when my neighbors told me about their dog, which they had found wandering along a river while they were on a vacation. They adopted the dog and named it Rio. It was a breed I hadn't seen before, smallish but rather muscular and quite alert. They told me the name of the breed which sounded like "skipper key" and spelled it out, "schipperke." The result was like a traffic pileup in my head: "Sch, k sound, Dutch! Skipper -- captain! It's a small dog -- -ke ending, must be a diminutive! Little captain!

I soon learned that this breed was commonly used as a watchdog on barges, and the name of the breed is also translated, "little boatman."
Dr Sardonicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-09-20, 17:53   #2
xilman
Bamboozled!
 
xilman's Avatar
 
"𒉺𒌌𒇷𒆷𒀭"
May 2003
Down not across

236218 Posts
Default

Also compare English yacht, which comes from the Dutch, with German Jäger, meaning hunter --- hence a particularly fast sailing vessel.

Quick poll for those who know at least some Dutch (== Deutsch of course): if you put English at one end of a continuum and German at the other, how far is Dutch from English? Personally I reckon it is rather closer to English than German --- perhaps 40/60 but others have told me that it's the other way round.

Paul
xilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-09-21, 02:50   #3
LaurV
Romulan Interpreter
 
LaurV's Avatar
 
Jun 2011
Thailand

22×7×317 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus View Post
Ah, yes, ...


For some unknown reason, I love this post!
LaurV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-09-21, 11:59   #4
Dr Sardonicus
 
Dr Sardonicus's Avatar
 
Feb 2017
Nowhere

3,583 Posts
Default

My all-time favorite for a word (supposedly) of Dutch origin is yankee. There are multiple proposals. One is the names Janke (Little John?) or Janneke (Little Jane?). Another is the name Jan Kees.

Yet another, and my favorite, is Jan Kaas, "John Cheese," which I have heard was a derogatory term. The British used yankees as a derogatory term for the American colonists. The phrase "stuck a feather in his cap and called it Macaroni" from "Yankee Doodle" refers to the then-current usage of "macaroni" as meaning stylish. The implication was that yankees were unsophisticated.
Dr Sardonicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-09-21, 14:18   #5
Nick
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Dec 2012
The Netherlands

3×5×97 Posts
Default

I didn't realize that English "corral" came from Dutch "kraal" (which means bead, of course) - thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
Quick poll for those who know at least some Dutch (== Deutsch of course): if you put English at one end of a continuum and German at the other, how far is Dutch from English? Personally I reckon it is rather closer to English than German --- perhaps 40/60 but others have told me that it's the other way round.
There is a geographical element: the Dutch dialect along some parts of our Eastern border has a lot in common with the low German spoken locally on the other side,
while to the West the sea hinders such a diffusion with English.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-09-21, 15:31   #6
Dr Sardonicus
 
Dr Sardonicus's Avatar
 
Feb 2017
Nowhere

3,583 Posts
Default The gunfight at the OK bead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
I didn't realize that English "corral" came from Dutch "kraal" (which means bead, of course) - thanks!
The meaning I'm familiar with is, an enclosure for livestock.
Dr Sardonicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-09-21, 20:38   #7
Brian-E
 
Brian-E's Avatar
 
"Brian"
Jul 2007
The Netherlands

326410 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
[...]
Quick poll for those who know at least some Dutch (== Deutsch of course): if you put English at one end of a continuum and German at the other, how far is Dutch from English? Personally I reckon it is rather closer to English than German --- perhaps 40/60 but others have told me that it's the other way round.

Paul
Dutch vocabulary is closer to English, I would say. But grammar and sentence structure is closer to German.
Brian-E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-09-22, 06:35   #8
kladner
 
kladner's Avatar
 
"Kieren"
Jul 2011
In My Own Galaxy!

24×54 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus View Post
Ah, yes, New York, or at least the south end of Manhattan Island, was once "New Amsterdam."

The "aa" is also in the old spelling of "Catskill," namely "Kaatskill," which appears in, e.g. Rip Van Winkle by Washington Irving, and the word "kraal," which became the US word "corral."
The "aa" and "oo" often indicate Dutch words; also the hard-c or k-sound of "sch." The word "school" exhibits both features.

The k-sounding "sch" led to an "aha" moment when my neighbors told me about their dog, which they had found wandering along a river while they were on a vacation. They adopted the dog and named it Rio. It was a breed I hadn't seen before, smallish but rather muscular and quite alert. They told me the name of the breed which sounded like "skipper key" and spelled it out, "schipperke." The result was like a traffic pileup in my head: "Sch, k sound, Dutch! Skipper -- captain! It's a small dog -- -ke ending, must be a diminutive! Little captain!

I soon learned that this breed was commonly used as a watchdog on barges, and the name of the breed is also translated, "little boatman."
I believe "corral" came into US English via Spanish/Portuguese.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraal#Etymology

I also remember a game of African origin, which my family had. I can't remember the name. A thick board with two rows of round pits, with round-end elongated pits at each end. I think this were called kraals. Play involved moving markers, like beans or pebbles, from pit to pit in such a way as to collect chits in your kraal.
EDIT: https://www.mastersofgames.com/rules/mancala-rules.htm

Maybe I am confusing kraal with https://www.mastersofgames.com/cat/b...ala-kalaha.htm

Last fiddled with by kladner on 2018-09-22 at 06:55 Reason: /Portuguese.
kladner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-09-22, 10:43   #9
houding
 
houding's Avatar
 
"Adolf"
Nov 2013
South Africa

758 Posts
Default

My home language is Afrikaans. It has a lot of Dutch and German in it.

I remember while still at high school one of the books we read had some Dutch in it. And when it came to be my turn to read, one of the words was "poespas". Well, p**s in Afrikaans has something to do with a female, so take a guess how I must have felt at that moment
houding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-09-22, 10:51   #10
pinhodecarlos
 
pinhodecarlos's Avatar
 
"Carlos Pinho"
Oct 2011
Milton Keynes, UK

2·23·103 Posts
Default

Just a quick note with regards to the origin of “curral” in Portuguese. It comes from the:

Kr [kar] (ancient Ugaritic and Hebrew) - lamb
HL [âal] (ancient Hebrew) lost sheep’s


So an enclosure for cattle or other livestock.

Last fiddled with by pinhodecarlos on 2018-09-22 at 10:53
pinhodecarlos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-09-22, 14:00   #11
VictordeHolland
 
VictordeHolland's Avatar
 
"Victor de Hollander"
Aug 2011
the Netherlands

2·587 Posts
Default

I would concur that Dutch is a bit of a mix of English with German sounds. But since WW2 the balance has shifted more towards English, as in that we loan more and more English words without a 'proper' translation.

Also I hate it that they changed the spelling of words like:
Buro/bureau
kado/cadeau
pannekoek/pannenkoek
couple of times in the last decates.
VictordeHolland is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What language should I study next? EdH Programming 25 2014-10-26 14:52
Evidence for the Origin of Water on Earth aymanmikhail Science & Technology 2 2011-09-06 01:40
What is offensive language? Brian-E Soap Box 140 2010-12-15 09:19
Body Language Orgasmic Troll Lounge 2 2005-11-29 16:52
Looking for the origin of a quote rogue Lounge 2 2005-11-20 18:09

All times are UTC. The time now is 05:49.

Fri Oct 30 05:49:20 UTC 2020 up 50 days, 3 hrs, 1 user, load averages: 1.76, 1.85, 1.80

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum has received and complied with 0 (zero) government requests for information.

Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation.
A copy of the license is included in the FAQ.