Tortured 100+, Persecutions 1.1

[garo]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...h-cia-torturer

The Obama administration's aggressive, full-scale whitewashing of the "war on terror" crimes committed by Bush officials is now complete. Thursday, Attorney General Eric Holder announced the closing without charges of the only two cases under investigation relating to the US torture program: one that resulted in the 2002 death of an Afghan detainee at a secret CIA prison near Kabul, and the other the 2003 death of an Iraqi citizen while in CIA custody at Abu Ghraib. This decision, says the New York Times Friday, "eliminat[es] the last possibility that any criminal charges will be brought as a result of the brutal interrogations carried out by the CIA".

This is so despite the findings of General Antonio Taguba, who investigated the torture regime and said that "there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes" and "the only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account." And it is done even in the face of General Barry McCaffrey's extraordinary observation that:

"We tortured people unmercifully. We probably murdered dozens of them during the course of that, both the armed forces and the CIA."

The whole piece is worth reading. And I remember a bit over two years ago a llama with cheese on its head telling me that obama was great and he would have fulfilled all his promises if only those evil guys in congress would let him.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by garo

The whole piece is worth reading.

Yes it is. Very depressing too. To my mind the worst aspect is that I doubt that the public outcry surrounding the fact that the Bush administration committed numerous illegal and sometimes fatal acts of torture, which "everyone knows" but which will never be properly investigated, is sufficient to deter future US administrations from committing similar atrocities. On the contrary, they may be encouraged to do so by this failing of the Obama administration.

A particular point made by the article, that US administrations have a vested interest in covering up crimes committed by previous ones because they hope their own backs will be covered when they too leave office, suggests that Obama's own administration is full of criminals too. Otherwise, why the vested interest?

[...] llama [...]

If this is a reference to earlier soap box discussion, I for one would appreciate a link.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by garo

And I remember a bit over two years ago a llama with cheese on its head telling me that obama was great and he would have fulfilled all his promises if only those evil guys in congress would let him.

Folks,

That's a lie.

Notice that garo doesn't quote or link to where I wrote that.

- - - - -

garo,

If you have a legitimate gripe about my political views, you wouldn't have to lie to make your point.

.

[Prime95]

Originally Posted by cheesehead

That's a lie.

Technically, that is not a lie.

Garo doesn't claim that you said X, he states that he remembers you saying X. Garo may be suffering from faulty recollections, but even so his statement is an accurate reflection of what he currently remembers.

Of course, if I were you, I'd also take umbrage...

[cheesehead]

George,

You were one of the folks that had no trouble making false statements about me recently in another thread regarding an Obama-related matter even though the actual words were right before you and you didn't have to rely on memory.

Perhaps the false attributions to me that you and others made then have contributed to an atmosphere where still other folks create artificial "memories" about my expressed Obama-related opinions.

[Prime95]

Originally Posted by cheesehead

You were one of the folks that had no trouble making false statements about me recently ...

Completely irrelevant to whether Garo should be called a liar.

[Prime95]

I'll bet garo is remembering these threads:

http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=15345
http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=12103

and perhaps these posts:

http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpos...41&postcount=3
http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpos...35&postcount=2

Originally Posted by cheesehead

Do you mean that Congress has now approved the funding it refused earlier?

If not, then nothing's changed in that regard -- it's still Congress that's the roadblock -- and I'm disappointed that you'd try to falsely imply otherwise.

Originally Posted by cheesehead

Hey, it's in the works. Can't close Gitmo until there's a place to transfer those that are still in custody, and Congress, not Obama, blocked that!

I conclude garo is not a liar. He merely wants to resume the debate started over 3 years ago.

P.S. Since I was not involved in either thread I doubt my prior naughty behavior led to garo's "misremembering".

P.P.S. Although cheesehead did provide a defense of Obama, I did not find a quote where cheesehead literally said "Obama is great".

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Prime95

P.P.S. Although cheesehead did provide a defense of Obama, I did not find a quote where cheesehead literally said "Obama is great".

What I have consistently done is to object to inaccurate, misleading and false statements about Obama.

Some of you appear not to have noticed that, and have, mistakenly, equated what I've actually posted to my having praised Obama, thus demonstrating that you're not very committed to telling the truth.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Prime95

I'll bet garo is remembering these threads:

http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=15345
http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=12103

and perhaps these posts:

http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpos...41&postcount=3
http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpos...35&postcount=2

Notice that a large proportion of what I wrote in those two threads was dedicated to correcting erroneous or ignorant statements that others had made.

1) Nothing in those threads is evidence that I think Obama is "great".

2) I most certainly never wrote that all that was keeping Obama from fulfilling all his promises was "evil guys in Congress".

What I DID have to write in extensive detail was to educate some of the non-American participants about certain details of the American legislative and executive system that were VERY important in understanding why Congress and the President had not yet done some desirable things.

I was and am not surprised that the details of the U.S. Senate's filibuster system are not widely known abroad. (I'd bet the percentage of Americans familiar with it is pretty small, too.) Nor is it surprising that such lack of knowledge of the filibuster system would lead to misunderstanding of the reason for inaction on Guantanamo and the prisoners held therein.

Also, with all the false propaganda about Executive Orders emitted in recent years by right-wing Americans, it's not surprising that non-Americans might have acquired a mistaken idea of what a president can or can not do by Executive Order. Here, too, ignorance of such details has contributed to misunderstanding abroad of the reasons for inaction on Guantanamo and the prisoners held therein.

I expended considerable time and effort to explaining such things to our non-American participants, who of course cannot have been otherwise expected to fully appreciate how important certain small details of the American system were to understanding the Guantanamo situation.

That I took the time and effort to do so was not fairly summarized by a facile slam incorporating the phrase "evil guys in congress".

The real story is that Garo, like many other non-Americans, is, quite understandably and excusably, not familiar with certain details of American government that have played a large role in determining what has and has NOT been done in regard to Guantanamo. Likewise, for other matters about which Obama made promises.

I would appreciate it if Garo and other non-Americans (and, actually, Americans, too) would try to keep that in mind when before carelessly attributing political opinions and positions, or attitudes toward the current U.S. president, to me.

- - -

Garo,

Please review all my posts in your "Obama's performance" and "Guantanamo trials to be restarted" threads. Then stop attributing opinions, positions, and attitudes to me that I never expressed.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Prime95

P.S. Since I was not involved in either thread I doubt my prior naughty behavior led to garo's "misremembering".

But garo's "misremembering" occurred just yesterday, not last year or three years ago when those threads were posted.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by cheesehead

[...]I expended considerable time and effort to explaining such things to our non-American participants, who of course cannot have been otherwise expected to fully appreciate how important certain small details of the American system were to understanding the Guantanamo situation.[...]

Your time and effort were greatly appreciated. I was one of those non-Americans who, grossly overestimating the power of the US President, could not understand why he didn't just shut Guantanamo Bay as he had pledged to. Those discussions opened by eyes to the reality, largely thanks to your input.

But we were specifically discussing Guantanamo back then. The article to which Garo links refers to the issue of Obama finally ruling out any chance of criminal investigations in the last two still-open cases of torture in CIA custody, both of which resulted in the death of the victim. Who can tell me, or express any opinion, whether Obama's hands have been at all tied in the issue of bringing CIA personnel to justice?