Move 42

WMHalsdorf · 2014-08-20, 21:36

42. Kh3 with the goal of having the King on h5 and the pawms on the 4th row resulting in a passed paen on the knight file.

LaurV · 2014-08-21, 10:57

Yeah... I saw their move. A bit unexpected, the king move, they are in some trouble with overloading of the knight and bishop, if we get the rook to hush the bishop away, and/or hush the horse with our bishop, they can't move both and defend the pawns in the same time. That is why I expected them to move the horse now, eventually attack the pawn. I understand that centralizing the king is very important, but it came in a wrong moment and it came in a not so good way either.

Our candidates are Rb6, Rc6, Re6, or Bd1. I am still thinking which one is better. I think Re6 is more aggressive, and it also hides a trap: if they move the king to either d7, d8, or f7, we immediately get a piece. They must move the king to f8. If so, then this may be more difficult to crack, and it may be easier move Rb6 or Rc6 right now, and just run for one of those pieces, until they get bored of us... hehe...

WMHalsdorf · 2014-08-21, 14:08

The 4 moves you proposed will come at some point, the rook moves Rb6 and Rc6 would be better than Kh3 if the Black King was not located e7 which leaves Re6+ and Bd1. Bd1 at this point does not gain us as much as one would think since it forces the knight to move toward the center to act as a shield to allow the King to get past our rook which is trapping thier king on the back 2 rows. This leaves us with your Re6+ and my Kh3 either of which I'm fine with. Remeber to much chasing without a pawn move is a draw.

LaurV · 2014-08-21, 18:43

Oh! I didn't see that you proposed a move, in fact :redface:
I read the post fast from job just before leaving for home, and replied few minutes before 18:00 o'clock here. I thought you just notified their king move, and only now at home, after reading your post, I see that you proposed to move the king on the side. Which move I honestly don't like... What goal this move serves? We block our pawn, they can easily move the bishop to g5 later, etc. Additionally, our king is better in the middle.

Third, what's wrong with 42 Rc6? :smile:
This is a very strong move, in my opinion. It threatens to take one of their figure, or the pawn in h6, for free, in few moves. If they move the bishop out of the c1-h6 diagonal, the pawn is gone. If 42...Be1, or Be3, it would be given for free, after 43 Re6+. If 42...Bc1, then Rc3 and a figure is gone. So, the only "clear" field for the bishop is Bg5. But after our h4 (eventually with a Re6 check in between, to hush the king away), the side pawn is ours (because if Bd2, Rd6, etc, if Bc1 Rd5 targeting Rb5 and we get the other pawn). So, they can't move the bishop. They might move the horse then, because if neither the horse nor bishop are moved after 42 Rc6, then 43 Rd6 and the things are the same, so in this respect, 42 Rc6 and 42 Re6+ are totally equivalent. 42 Rb5 seems more direct attack for the horse, but is weaker, after 42...Nc5, we need to defend the pawn, with Bd1. So, 42 Rc6 forbids the 42...Nc5, same effect as the check with 42 Re6+ would achieve. The idea is not to give them a check, but to forbid them attacking the pawn directly, so we can keep out bishop there. But Rc6 is stronger here in case he decides not to move the horse or the bishop, because we can go in between them, Rc2, etc, keep those figures linked there. But, on the other side, 42 Re6+ is a direct attack, and hides a trap, in case they move the king wrong. The ultimate goal of both rook moves is to place our rook in d6 (now guarded by the king) from where Rd3 will take a figure. If we play this good, I don't think they can avoid losing either a pawn there [U]for free[/U], or a figure (eventually the figure for the pawn if they move Bg5 and beat h4 after we push it).

So, moving the bishop they can not, moving neither they can not. It remains to move the knight. Where? Na1 is death after Bd1, with few moves of the rook. Nc1? Rc2 and they lose it after few adventures with the bishop and our king and h4 pawn. Nc5? Lost at once. So, only Nd4 available, and here they will again lose a pawn.

And don't forget that the pawns are right now more precious for black than any figure. You can't win with a knight and a bishop against a naked king, so it they lose the pawns, they don't have any chance to win. So, if [B]42 Rc6/Re6+ Kf8, 43 Rd6 Bb4[/B] (say), then [B]Rxh6 [/B]and we get a pawn for free, in this case (which seems to be the best black can get!) even if we sacrifice the rook for the second pawn (assume by "reductio ad absurdum"), and we play 3 pawns and bishop against horse and bishop, we still can win the game clearly!

So, I assume the right choice now is only to decide which one from Rc6 or Re6 is better... Anything I am missing?

WMHalsdorf · 2014-08-21, 22:07

Black's King guards d6 which is the most import square for Black at this time which means the only moves available are the Knight moves so why do anything the forces them to move the Knight when that is the only piece they can move. I can see why you find but look at when our King is on h5 and the pawns are on g4 and h4.

LaurV · 2014-08-22, 05:31

Then we have a voting problem... hehe... :smile:

I don't try to force them to move the horse, but the king. At least, this is what Re6 would accomplish... But say we go your way with 42 Kh3, then they move either 42..Bg5, or 42..Nc5

Then?

[edit: And because I went through Rc6 before, let's go through 42 Re6 a bit: (I am playing cheesehead now, hehe)
They can't take Kd7, due to Re3+ and horse gone. They can't take Kd8, due to Rd6+ (so much with "guarding d6"!) followed by Rd3, and either horse or bishop is gone. If 42..Kf7, then Re2, threatening Be6+, so 43..Kf6 44 Rf2 followed by Bd1 and one figure gone. If 43..Kg7 (or so, leaving e6 free) 44 Be6, one figure gone, or if 44..Nd4, then 45 Rxd2, Nxe5 46 Re5 and we take a5, free pawn, that is a queen, or it takes the knight with it when it dies.

So, their only reply to [B]42 Re6[/B] could be 42..Kf8, then Kh3 may be as good as it is now, and as good as Rd6 would be. Again, so much about guarding that d6 square.

Easy to play, when we have so much advantage.

Now, can you convince me that Kh3 is better than this? I have nothing against going Kh3, in fact, we may win anyhow. We have too much advantage right now.
/edit]

WMHalsdorf · 2014-08-22, 15:33

42. Kh3 Nd4 43. Kh4 Bg5+ 44. Rxg5 hxg5+ 45. Kxg5 Ne6+ 46. Kh6
42. Kh3 Nc5 43. Bd1 Ne6 44. Bb3 Nf8 45. Ra6
42. Kh3 Bg5 43. Rb6 Nc5 44. Bd1 Bd2

Find any improvements for Black, if so then Re6+ would be best.

LaurV · 2014-08-23, 17:03

Well, as I said, we win anyhow, we have too much of advantage here. Let's go your version and get rid of it, otherwise cheesehead will make fun of us that we tried to speed it up, but now we are thinking a week for it :razz:

LaurV · 2014-09-06, 12:28

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;381141]42. Kh3 Nc5 43. Bd1 [STRIKE]Ne6 44. Bb3 Nf8 45. Ra6[/STRIKE]
Find any improvements for Black, if so then Re6+ would be best.[/QUOTE]
Well, they replied [B]Ne4[/B], the question is if this is an improvement for black or not. It seems to be stronger, as they now have both the check and the pawn/bishop fork, but none of them have any continuation, and it is exactly the same for us. I will look into it over the weekend, how this change the game. I thinks is not, but wanna be sure.

WMHalsdorf · 2014-09-06, 15:18

Bc2 looks to be the best move. Black only has Nd6 and Nf6 as the other moves give us to much of an advantage.

LaurV · 2014-09-06, 15:52

Yes, I was thinking the same, your older version was with Ne6 Bb3, and following the same logic, Ne4 Bc2 seems even better, because we link (defend) the rook from their king, and also the c2 is better for the bishop than b3, as they can't attack both the pawn and bishop with the horse. Also, in c2, the bishop guards our pawns when they will go toward transformation.

In fact, I think that their move was meant to block Kh4. Remark that we can't advance the king to h4 now, because after Bg5, Kg4 (we can't capture the pawn, the horse defends the pawn/bishop, so Rxg5 is bad now), then Nf6! and black stays quite good on that side, actually that will go fast to a draw). So, maybe they expect us to fall into this trap.

What we can do now, is either go back with the king to g2, and we just wasted the move (hehe :razz: told ye!), or we move the king directly to g4, cutting a move: after Nf6 we go Kf5 and we are very good again.

So, our alternatives (beside of playing stupid moves with the rook or the bishop) are:

Kg2 (wasted the last move, but still good)
Kg4 - one of the best
Bc2 - one of the best
Bb3 - not bad, we still can follow the former analysis, they can't do much
Be2/Bf3 - hm...

I will try to do a comparison tomorrow between Bc2 and Kg4, just to make sure we don't fall in any stupid trap (like an eternal check or something, one more reason why I didn't like the king cornered on h3), and then we can move Bc2 (assuming you keep it too).

2014-08-20, 21:36	#1
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³·19 Posts	Move 42 42. Kh3 with the goal of having the King on h5 and the pawms on the 4th row resulting in a passed paen on the knight file.

2014-08-21, 18:43	#4
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 5×11²×17 Posts	Oh! I didn't see that you proposed a move, in fact :redface: I read the post fast from job just before leaving for home, and replied few minutes before 18:00 o'clock here. I thought you just notified their king move, and only now at home, after reading your post, I see that you proposed to move the king on the side. Which move I honestly don't like... What goal this move serves? We block our pawn, they can easily move the bishop to g5 later, etc. Additionally, our king is better in the middle. Third, what's wrong with 42 Rc6? :smile: This is a very strong move, in my opinion. It threatens to take one of their figure, or the pawn in h6, for free, in few moves. If they move the bishop out of the c1-h6 diagonal, the pawn is gone. If 42...Be1, or Be3, it would be given for free, after 43 Re6+. If 42...Bc1, then Rc3 and a figure is gone. So, the only "clear" field for the bishop is Bg5. But after our h4 (eventually with a Re6 check in between, to hush the king away), the side pawn is ours (because if Bd2, Rd6, etc, if Bc1 Rd5 targeting Rb5 and we get the other pawn). So, they can't move the bishop. They might move the horse then, because if neither the horse nor bishop are moved after 42 Rc6, then 43 Rd6 and the things are the same, so in this respect, 42 Rc6 and 42 Re6+ are totally equivalent. 42 Rb5 seems more direct attack for the horse, but is weaker, after 42...Nc5, we need to defend the pawn, with Bd1. So, 42 Rc6 forbids the 42...Nc5, same effect as the check with 42 Re6+ would achieve. The idea is not to give them a check, but to forbid them attacking the pawn directly, so we can keep out bishop there. But Rc6 is stronger here in case he decides not to move the horse or the bishop, because we can go in between them, Rc2, etc, keep those figures linked there. But, on the other side, 42 Re6+ is a direct attack, and hides a trap, in case they move the king wrong. The ultimate goal of both rook moves is to place our rook in d6 (now guarded by the king) from where Rd3 will take a figure. If we play this good, I don't think they can avoid losing either a pawn there [U]for free[/U], or a figure (eventually the figure for the pawn if they move Bg5 and beat h4 after we push it). So, moving the bishop they can not, moving neither they can not. It remains to move the knight. Where? Na1 is death after Bd1, with few moves of the rook. Nc1? Rc2 and they lose it after few adventures with the bishop and our king and h4 pawn. Nc5? Lost at once. So, only Nd4 available, and here they will again lose a pawn. And don't forget that the pawns are right now more precious for black than any figure. You can't win with a knight and a bishop against a naked king, so it they lose the pawns, they don't have any chance to win. So, if [B]42 Rc6/Re6+ Kf8, 43 Rd6 Bb4[/B] (say), then [B]Rxh6 [/B]and we get a pawn for free, in this case (which seems to be the best black can get!) even if we sacrifice the rook for the second pawn (assume by "reductio ad absurdum"), and we play 3 pawns and bishop against horse and bishop, we still can win the game clearly! So, I assume the right choice now is only to decide which one from Rc6 or Re6 is better... Anything I am missing? Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2014-08-21 at 18:51

2014-08-22, 05:31	#6
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 5·11²·17 Posts	Then we have a voting problem... hehe... :smile: I don't try to force them to move the horse, but the king. At least, this is what Re6 would accomplish... But say we go your way with 42 Kh3, then they move either 42..Bg5, or 42..Nc5 Then? [edit: And because I went through Rc6 before, let's go through 42 Re6 a bit: (I am playing cheesehead now, hehe) They can't take Kd7, due to Re3+ and horse gone. They can't take Kd8, due to Rd6+ (so much with "guarding d6"!) followed by Rd3, and either horse or bishop is gone. If 42..Kf7, then Re2, threatening Be6+, so 43..Kf6 44 Rf2 followed by Bd1 and one figure gone. If 43..Kg7 (or so, leaving e6 free) 44 Be6, one figure gone, or if 44..Nd4, then 45 Rxd2, Nxe5 46 Re5 and we take a5, free pawn, that is a queen, or it takes the knight with it when it dies. So, their only reply to [B]42 Re6[/B] could be 42..Kf8, then Kh3 may be as good as it is now, and as good as Rd6 would be. Again, so much about guarding that d6 square. Easy to play, when we have so much advantage. Now, can you convince me that Kh3 is better than this? I have nothing against going Kh3, in fact, we may win anyhow. We have too much advantage right now. /edit] Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2014-08-22 at 05:52

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2014-08-21, 10:57	#2
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 5·11²·17 Posts	Yeah... I saw their move. A bit unexpected, the king move, they are in some trouble with overloading of the knight and bishop, if we get the rook to hush the bishop away, and/or hush the horse with our bishop, they can't move both and defend the pawns in the same time. That is why I expected them to move the horse now, eventually attack the pawn. I understand that centralizing the king is very important, but it came in a wrong moment and it came in a not so good way either. Our candidates are Rb6, Rc6, Re6, or Bd1. I am still thinking which one is better. I think Re6 is more aggressive, and it also hides a trap: if they move the king to either d7, d8, or f7, we immediately get a piece. They must move the king to f8. If so, then this may be more difficult to crack, and it may be easier move Rb6 or Rc6 right now, and just run for one of those pieces, until they get bored of us... hehe...

2014-08-21, 14:08	#3
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	The 4 moves you proposed will come at some point, the rook moves Rb6 and Rc6 would be better than Kh3 if the Black King was not located e7 which leaves Re6+ and Bd1. Bd1 at this point does not gain us as much as one would think since it forces the knight to move toward the center to act as a shield to allow the King to get past our rook which is trapping thier king on the back 2 rows. This leaves us with your Re6+ and my Kh3 either of which I'm fine with. Remeber to much chasing without a pawn move is a draw.

2014-08-21, 22:07	#5
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	Black's King guards d6 which is the most import square for Black at this time which means the only moves available are the Knight moves so why do anything the forces them to move the Knight when that is the only piece they can move. I can see why you find but look at when our King is on h5 and the pawns are on g4 and h4.

2014-08-22, 15:33	#7
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 513₁₀ Posts	42. Kh3 Nd4 43. Kh4 Bg5+ 44. Rxg5 hxg5+ 45. Kxg5 Ne6+ 46. Kh6 42. Kh3 Nc5 43. Bd1 Ne6 44. Bb3 Nf8 45. Ra6 42. Kh3 Bg5 43. Rb6 Nc5 44. Bd1 Bd2 Find any improvements for Black, if so then Re6+ would be best.

2014-08-23, 17:03	#8
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 5·11²·17 Posts	Well, as I said, we win anyhow, we have too much of advantage here. Let's go your version and get rid of it, otherwise cheesehead will make fun of us that we tried to speed it up, but now we are thinking a week for it :razz:

2014-09-06, 12:28	#9
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 5·11²·17 Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;381141]42. Kh3 Nc5 43. Bd1 [STRIKE]Ne6 44. Bb3 Nf8 45. Ra6[/STRIKE] Find any improvements for Black, if so then Re6+ would be best.[/QUOTE] Well, they replied [B]Ne4[/B], the question is if this is an improvement for black or not. It seems to be stronger, as they now have both the check and the pawn/bishop fork, but none of them have any continuation, and it is exactly the same for us. I will look into it over the weekend, how this change the game. I thinks is not, but wanna be sure.

2014-09-06, 15:18	#10
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 1001₈ Posts	Bc2 looks to be the best move. Black only has Nd6 and Nf6 as the other moves give us to much of an advantage.

2014-09-06, 15:52	#11
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 10285₁₀ Posts	Yes, I was thinking the same, your older version was with Ne6 Bb3, and following the same logic, Ne4 Bc2 seems even better, because we link (defend) the rook from their king, and also the c2 is better for the bishop than b3, as they can't attack both the pawn and bishop with the horse. Also, in c2, the bishop guards our pawns when they will go toward transformation. In fact, I think that their move was meant to block Kh4. Remark that we can't advance the king to h4 now, because after Bg5, Kg4 (we can't capture the pawn, the horse defends the pawn/bishop, so Rxg5 is bad now), then Nf6! and black stays quite good on that side, actually that will go fast to a draw). So, maybe they expect us to fall into this trap. What we can do now, is either go back with the king to g2, and we just wasted the move (hehe :razz: told ye!), or we move the king directly to g4, cutting a move: after Nf6 we go Kf5 and we are very good again. So, our alternatives (beside of playing stupid moves with the rook or the bishop) are: Kg2 (wasted the last move, but still good) Kg4 - one of the best Bc2 - one of the best Bb3 - not bad, we still can follow the former analysis, they can't do much Be2/Bf3 - hm... I will try to do a comparison tomorrow between Bc2 and Kg4, just to make sure we don't fall in any stupid trap (like an eternal check or something, one more reason why I didn't like the king cornered on h3), and then we can move Bc2 (assuming you keep it too).