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Old 2022-03-16, 14:43   #199
tServo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus View Post

Unfortunately, the prospect of city after city in Ukraine systematically being razed to the ground does not seem unrealistic to me.
This is Putin's and the Russian military's playbook.

However, I have been intrigued by the Russkie military's low competence. Yes, much of it is due to the unexpected fierceness of the Ukrainians, but a lot of it looks inherent.
I think they would suffer greatly in a straight-up, toe-to-toe fight with a similarly equipped and equal sized force.
The deflation of the opinion of their military strength is probably another result of this conflict.

In early WWII, before operation Barbarossa, Russia attacked Finland. It was almost an analog to the current war. The Russkies did eventually prevail, but not until they suffered many casualties and several outright defeats.
Meanwhile, Hitler and the senior officers of the Wehrmacht took notice of Russia's weakness.

Last fiddled with by Dr Sardonicus on 2022-03-16 at 15:29 Reason: xifnig spyto
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Old 2022-03-16, 16:16   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tServo View Post
<snip>
However, I have been intrigued by the Russkie military's low competence. Yes, much of it is due to the unexpected fierceness of the Ukrainians, but a lot of it looks inherent.
I think they would suffer greatly in a straight-up, toe-to-toe fight with a similarly equipped and equal sized force.
The deflation of the opinion of their military strength is probably another result of this conflict.

In early WWII, before operation Barbarossa, Russia attacked Finland. It was almost an analog to the current war. The Russkies did eventually prevail, but not until they suffered many casualties and several outright defeats.
Meanwhile, Hitler and the senior officers of the Wehrmacht took notice of Russia's weakness.
I note that the USSR did not militarily occupy Finland. But the term "Finlandization" came to be thought of in about the same light as "appeasement" during the Cold War.

One lesson Herr Hitler apparently did not learn from Russia's war with Finland was, Stalin was totally untroubled by the prospect of mass casualties in the Red Army. He'd even had a goodly portion of the officer corps shot during his purges before the war. If memory serves, he started with General Tukachevsky(sp?), commander of the Moscow garrison. He was capable, and popular with his men. And therefore a threat. As was anybody else who was capable and popular. Or, perhaps, anyone who was troubled by the execution of Tukachevsky, and of those who were subsequently unjustly executed...

IMO the Japanese had absorbed the lesson of Stalin's placid acceptance of mass casualties in his own military. On August 8, 1945, between our August 6 nuclear attack on Hiroshima and our August 9 nuclear attack on Nagasaki, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan. Stalin sent a million men into Manchuria. The Soviet Union seized the Kuril(e) Islands, and Japan has not regained possession of them to this day.

IMO it wasn't just the fear of more nuclear bombings that caused Hirohito to surrender. He surely understood that if the USSR invaded the home islands, Stalin wouldn't care how many of his men died, as long as the USSR eventually prevailed. And that Japanese civilians would not be treated with any more mercy by Stalin's military than his men had treated civilians in conquered lands. And of course, the Russians had a score to settle with Japan. They had been humiliated militarily in the Russo-Japanese war.

The fact that the Russians also defeated Hitler militarily is due in no small measure to the failing of Hitler's despotism. He had obliged his military to swear oaths of allegiance to him personally. It was for this reason that, for example, General Paulus was unable to retreat to avoid his army being completely encircled at Stalingrad. Hitler simply refused to grant him permission to do so.
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Old 2022-03-16, 16:31   #201
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There is another frightening parallel to how Soviet military lines were organized.
Behind the first line there was the 2nd line - to shoot those who even thinks about retreating.

Putin (based on some rumors) uses the same, ... in the 21st century.
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Old 2022-03-16, 20:47   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batalov View Post
There is another frightening parallel to how Soviet military lines were organized.
Behind the first line there was the 2nd line - to shoot those who even thinks about retreating.

Putin (based on some rumors) uses the same, ... in the 21st century.
If I may please say this...

I, personally, got this entirely incorrect.

I /thought/ there was some serious thinking going on here. And, there is.

But... Oh my... Humans should not be pawns! And, yet, they still are!
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Old 2022-03-16, 20:59   #203
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Consider the ancient origin of the word decimation. And a thread on possible more recent use here.

Last fiddled with by kriesel on 2022-03-16 at 21:03
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Old 2022-03-16, 21:33   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriesel View Post
Consider the ancient origin of the word...
To put it on the table, I very much enjoy working beside you. And everyone serious who works here. That statement is sincere.

Presumed:

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith

4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium

Further discussions within this kind of context are what I, personally, enjoy the most...
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Old 2022-03-17, 01:58   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batalov View Post
There is another frightening parallel to how Soviet military lines were organized.
Behind the first line there was the 2nd line - to shoot those who even thinks about retreating.

Putin (based on some rumors) uses the same, ... in the 21st century.
I'm guessing that you're referring to Stalin's Order 227, AKA "Not One Step Back!" I will leave it to interested readers to look it up.

I remember that during Operation Desert Storm, there were rumors that Saddam Hussein had units to kill "cowards." He had studied Stalin's methods, so perhaps that is where he got the idea. However, Stalin's order was to discourage retreat in the face of an advancing enemy invader, and Saddam was the enemy invader in Kuwait. As are Putin's soldiers in Ukraine.

I read somewhere that during WWII, some Soviet field commanders deliberately failed to report that men under their command had been killed in action. They had an eminently practical reason for this: the food rations being allotted were totally inadequate. By not reporting the deaths of soldiers under their command, they insured that the unit would keep getting their rations, and the surviving soldiers would have more to eat. If they did report the deaths, of course, the unit's rations would be cut.
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Old 2022-03-17, 03:11   #206
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I'm wondering where organized crime is in all of this. They can't be hiding under rocks and other things. These people run a lot of underground connections and are accustomed to making a profit under all conditions. They have money, guns..etc..

Another point (among many) is organ (and other) traficking.
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Old 2022-03-17, 03:14   #207
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From what I have seen, Russian organized crime sees this as a good thing for them. Takes attention off of them. Also, some 'military units' have been co-opted police groups.
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Old 2022-03-17, 13:42   #208
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Organized heist of 400 used protective vests overnight in NYC. Intended to go to Ukrainian medical workers and humanitarian volunteers. Instead a crew with 3 vans broke in and stole them.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/about-400...in-nyc-reports

Last fiddled with by kriesel on 2022-03-17 at 13:42
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Old 2022-03-18, 11:50   #209
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Also in NYC: At the UN, the Russian Ambassador to the UN demanded an emergency Security Council meeting to address the "issue" of biolabs in Ukraine. Is Tucker Carlson going to be called as a witness? Too soon to tell.

In our nation's capital, a bunch of R-Senators voted against more aid for Ukraine - then turned around and demanded that President Biden do more to help the Ukrainians.

Last fiddled with by Dr Sardonicus on 2022-03-18 at 11:51 Reason: xignif topsy
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