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Old 2007-02-27, 22:40   #1
petrw1
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Default Privacy vs Security ... an extreme view

I suspect this will be a passionate debate and I admit it is an extreme view and impractical idea but we can talk about it.

With more and more reports of missing children (or adults), whether it be simply wandering off in a large department store or at the other extreme of a kidnapping.

AND with current technology it is relatively easy to find DNA or fingerprint evidence in most crime scenes ... if only they could match it so someone.

Imagine the hugh impact we would have on finding and identifying virtually anyone if all people at birth would give fingerprints, a DNA sample and have a GPS/identity implant.

Is this loss of privacy worth the gain of safety and security? I suggest you would get very different answers from:
- a mother who just had a child kidnapped
- someone with something to hide
- someone whose life has so far been pretty routine and is not affected

This idea was sparked by a real article in our local newspaper a couple years ago about how a certain Japanese School System was dealing with escalating truancy...electronic implants.
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Old 2007-02-27, 23:31   #2
Uncwilly
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Many years ago (~1985), I heard it suggested that the use of something similar to RFID or a pet chip, with scanners at supermarkets, schools, etc. would be a huge step toward ending kidnapping. This was suggested by someone that knew how to set-up a system like that and had thought about it in the 1960's.
A 2 day log would be enough in most cases, with the ablity to set-up an alert list for those reported missing.

The US military has been taking DNA samples for all personnel for a while. And before that they did dental work for ID purposes.

I had to have my prints taken and run (by government officials) for my job.

Most mobile telephones now have a form of GPS in them. Big Brother can access this, while the phone is on, even if it is not in the midst of a call.

More and more areas are requiring convicts and suspects to yield DNA, by law, without a writ or warrant.

Last fiddled with by Uncwilly on 2007-02-27 at 23:34 Reason: Why not?
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Old 2007-02-28, 04:48   #3
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Well, here in Brazil we have always had a civilian ID card which is not mandatory, but which is needed for virtually anything, from a simple bus electronic ticket to a college enrollment or a job, so everyone has got one. Mine was first issued back when I was 5, because I was about to do an interstate trip or something like that. The card itself shows the print of the right thumb, but when you apply for it you must give all your fingerprints.

The rate of murders, kidnappings and crimes in general which get solved is *very* low. I don't know whether it would be lower if there wasn't that ID.

Bruno
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Old 2007-03-04, 14:35   #4
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As there is a lack of it so far, I will take the role of "data security"...

Some central questions are:
1. Who has supervision of the data?
2. Do you trust that authority?
3. What steps are performed so that no "unwanted" authority has access to the data?


To 1.:
That would most likely be some federal agency. But due to budget cuts, it could also become a privatly operated company.

To 2.:
Not only the authority itself needs to be trustworthy, but also next to all employees. There have been several reported cases of misuse of such data (e.g. police records). Of course, only a very small fraction is corrupt. But you should wish never to cross one's path...

To 3.:
Trust not only includes that you trust them to use that data only when needed, but also trust in their competence to keep this personal data safe. Just think of all the "identity thefts", esp. in the USA.

Such information in "wrong hands" can be very disastrous. Just imagine someone faking your identity when committing a crime. It's not that easy to get a fingerprint to a crime scene - but e.g. a hair should not be a big problem...

Finally, what when the "authority" itself becomes e.g. a brutal regime? Is it possible to withdraw them the data?
I'm happy such data wasn't available 70 years ago...

----------

Assuming there are adequate answers for those (and more) questions, I have little against "security measures". But it is important to weigh benefit and effort - esp. relative to other options.
In Germany, ~15 people per day die through traffic accidents. In the USA, there are almost 100, AFAIK. Therefore, a single month of traffic killed as many people as all terroristic attacks in the USA in the last ... 10? ... years.
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Old 2007-03-04, 15:49   #5
jasonp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petrw1 View Post
Imagine the hugh impact we would have on finding and identifying virtually anyone if all people at birth would give fingerprints, a DNA sample and have a GPS/identity implant.
Lots of background reading: http://www.schneier.com/cgi-bin/sear...dna&Realm=blog

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Old 2007-03-05, 20:27   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystwalker View Post
In Germany, ~15 people per day die through traffic accidents. In the USA, there are almost 100, AFAIK. Therefore, a single month of traffic killed as many people as all terroristic attacks in the USA in the last ... 10? ... years.
Hm... Mystwalker, that's certainly my fault since my brain cells are bananaing because of something else (I've finally found a place to live! It's cheap! It's close to the Uni! It's fun!!), but...

how does the quoted part connects to the rest of the thread?

Sorry,
Bruno
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Old 2007-03-06, 00:16   #7
MooooMoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petrw1 View Post
Imagine the hugh impact we would have on finding and identifying virtually anyone if all people at birth would give fingerprints, a DNA sample and have a GPS/identity implant.
I don't know if it's just me, but that bold part (highlighted by me) looks disturbingly similar to the Mark of the Beast.

And no, I'm not a fundamentalist/extremist/born-again Christian.

Last fiddled with by MooooMoo on 2007-03-06 at 00:17
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Old 2007-03-06, 08:10   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petrw1 View Post
Imagine the hugh impact we would have on finding and identifying virtually anyone if all people at birth would give fingerprints, a DNA sample and have a GPS/identity implant.
It would be 1984 made into reality. Look at it this way : you trade in the fact that you have privacy against the fact that it would be possible in some cases to find some of the 0,001 % of people missing in a year. Because even a GPS does not work everywhere : an obvious example would be a concrete cellar with a fine meshed armature or any room with metal ceiling , floor and walls : a boat for instance. You can have, theoretically, absolute security in a prison, but even that is not true in practice.

You might think you have nothing to hide, but that is true until you do not agree with the people in power. Think what a Pol Pot, to speak about a recent example, could have done if everyone in Cambodia had a GPS implant : he would have missed NONE of the "intellectuals".

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes ?" ("Who will guard the guards themselves ?")

Jacob
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Old 2007-03-06, 11:00   #9
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Hi Bruno,

Quote:
Originally Posted by brunoparga View Post
how does the quoted part connects to the rest of the thread?
It is only peripherally connected. It's basically a risk analysis. Currently, traffic is my worst "natural" enemy (that and my malnutrition - thank God I'm not smoking! ). I don't think we should sacrifice privacy for something that is even far less dangerous.
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Old 2007-03-07, 02:39   #10
petrw1
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It would be very risky indeed (a la 1984) to have such critical information recorded (and hence available). Granted for every safety measure put in place there would be someone who would find a work around (like "hack-proof" web-sites ).

I think there would have to be double-checks (just like GIMPS). If a crime scene DNA matches the DNA recorded for you in the database you could be apprehended but then have your DNA double-checked before they throw away the key. Ditto for finger prints. I would like the believe the error rate (i.e. hacking) would be very low.

My crazy idea for the GPS implant is that it is programmed to send a distress signal as soon as it is un-implanted. As for concrete cellars ... guess we need better GPS devices / transmitters ... and the master console would generate an alarm with the last known location when the devices is unreachable for a period of ??? 2 days ???

Harsh penalties for deliberate tampering or hacking.

Last fiddled with by petrw1 on 2007-03-07 at 02:39
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Old 2007-03-09, 11:51   #11
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What I wonder:

Would such privacy restrictions also apply to the "powers that be"?
I'd say that they often are very creative when explaining why they don't have to be supervised...
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