mersenneforum.org  

Go Back   mersenneforum.org > Extra Stuff > Hobbies > Chess > Game 2 - ♔♕♙♘♖♙ - Shaolin Pirates

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-12-17, 18:23   #12
LaurV
Romulan Interpreter
 
LaurV's Avatar
 
Jun 2011
Thailand

2·3·7·233 Posts
Default

Very interesting, and very comprehensive analysis. I had a look to it, my guests are sleeping now. Nice, you invested a lot of work.

I also like 17.d4 better than other discussed moves. As you said before (reveeeengeeee! hehe) "we need to analyze every aspect, to avoid making mistakes". :razz: I was looking to 17...a4 (in fact, I desperately searched some variant which is not in your analysis, hehe). In this case, we can't play too much, queen side is totaly blocked, the only move which makes sense is 18.Ng5 then ...Nf5.

Then what? 19.g4,Nxe3,Nxe3,Bh6 21.h4,Bxg5,hxg5,h6 23.gxh6 Rxh6, and we eliminated almost all pieces from the board hehe... This looks ok for us, I mean it is not a clear win, but it is not a lose either... I believe 17...a4 is their best reply to d4, because it locks the queen side, and on the king side, their king is more protected, our is more open.

Then I was thinking "what if we move a4 first?". We discussed a4 a bit during the former moves, but you forgot it here. I bet they miss it too, this is not easy to see, but remember? "be aggressive!" hehe... Now, if we do 17.a4, they can not beat d3. If they do, 18.axb5 Nxe5 (forced, no place for the horse) 19 Nxe5 Bxe5 and with either Ba7 first, or Rxa5 directly, we have recovered our pawn and have 3 (three!) free pawns on the b/c columns. This is heavy! It will be our game for sure.

Also: 17...bxa4, we still can push 18.d4 - where your all analysis stands right, but this time we are *not* blocked on the queen's side, and they can not defend the pawn in a4 (both black pawns in "a" fall in few moves).

If they force the exchange first: 17.a4 Nxe5 Nxe5 Bxe5 19.axb5 and we open the rook, they can not defend both c4 and a5 pawns, therefore will exchange 19...cxd3 20.Rxa5, and again we have free pawns.

I think this version is better than playing directly d4.

So, my vote will be:
17.a4 - 5 points
17.d4 - 4 points
17.Ng5 - 3 points (this is a very interesting move too!)
other discussed moves except dxc4 - 1 point
17.dxc4 - zero (this looks very bad for me, and also from your analysis)

Please have a look to this "a4" before posting, it seems to have enough potential. If is not convincing, then feel free to post any move, in time [edit: i mean "d4", not "any" move!]. I don't think I will go more into it this time, i.e. nor to analyze it, neither to post it, till after christmas I don't think I will play any chess. I trust you both with any decision you might take.

(p.s.: maybe we can adjourn? everybody will have christmas, or holidays, and it is not fun, at least for me, if I don't see and "feel" what you play. We can say on the public forum that we decided the move and we want the envelope to adjourn, the supermods are our witnesses that we will not change the move after we "voted" it - is that right?)

Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-12-17 at 18:29
LaurV is offline  
Old 2013-12-18, 11:32   #13
cheesehead
 
cheesehead's Avatar
 
"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA

22·3·641 Posts
Default

Excellent ideas!
[QUOTE=LaurV;362326]I was looking to 17...a4 (in fact, I desperately searched some variant which is not in your analysis, hehe).[/quote]Thank you for not having the same blind spot as I did! Never thought about a4.

[quote]In this case, we can't play too much, queen side is totaly blocked, the only move which makes sense is 18.Ng5 then ...Nf5. [/quote]Just to be clear here, you're discussing
[b]17 d4 a4
18 Ng5 Nf5[/b]

[quote]Then what? 19.g4,Nxe3[/quote][U]Don't forget 19 ... Nh4[/U] instead!!
20 Nxf7 Nxg2 21 Nxh8 Nxe3 22 Nxe3 Bxh8 23 Rf2 Bg7 24 Raf1 Bh6 25 Ng2 and we'll have given our three former most-active pieces for doubled rooks but an awkward remaining knight. Black still has his white-square bishop staring at our king position, but also positional problems on his king-side.

But let's continue with
[b]17 d4 a4
18 Ng5 Nf5
19 g4 Nxe3[/b]
[quote]20Nxe3,Bh6 21.h4,Bxg5,hxg5,h6 23.gxh6 Rxh6, and we eliminated almost all pieces from the board hehe... This looks ok for us, I mean it is not a clear win, but it is not a lose either...[/quote]I'm not comfortable with that particular result.

[quote]Then I was thinking "what if we move a4 first?". We discussed a4 a bit during the former moves, but you forgot it here.[/quote]I certainly did.

(to be continued)
cheesehead is offline  
Old 2013-12-18, 12:27   #14
cheesehead
 
cheesehead's Avatar
 
"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA

22·3·641 Posts
Default

(continued from preceding post)

[QUOTE]I bet they miss it too, this is not easy to see, but remember? "be aggressive!" hehe... Now, if we do 17.a4, they can not beat d3. If they do,[/QUOTE][B]17 a4 cxd3[/B]
[quote]18.axb5 Nxe5 (forced, no place for the horse) 19 Nxe5 Bxe5 and with either Ba7 first, or Rxa5 directly, we have recovered our pawn and have 3 (three!) free pawns on the b/c columns. This is heavy! It will be our game for sure.[/quote]Looks good.

[quote]Also: 17...bxa4, we still can push 18.d4[/quote][B]17 a4 bxa4
18 d4[/B]
[quote] - where your all analysis stands right, but this time we are *not* blocked on the queen's side, and they can not defend the pawn in a4 (both black pawns in "a" fall in few moves).

If they force the exchange first: 17.a4 Nxe5 18 Nxe5 Bxe5[/quote](Here we have the option of 19 Bf4 Bxf4 20 Rxf4 instead. Does this have merit?)

[quote]19.axb5 and we open the rook,[/quote][B]17 a4 Nxe5
18 Nxe5 Bxe5
19 axb5[/B]

[quote]they can not defend both c4 and a5 pawns,[/quote]If 19 ... Bc7 then 20 dxc4 and maybe 20 ... Nf5 21 Bg5 Nd6 22 Bf6 Rb8 (or O-O) 23 Ne3

[quote]therefore will exchange 19...cxd3 20.Rxa5, and again we have free pawns. [/quote]Looks good.

[quote]I think this version is better than playing directly d4.

So, my vote will be:
17.a4 - 5 points
17.d4 - 4 points
17.Ng5 - 3 points (this is a very interesting move too!)
other discussed moves except dxc4 - 1 point
17.dxc4 - zero (this looks very bad for me, and also from your analysis)

< snip >

(p.s.: maybe we can adjourn?[/quote]Excellent idea! I'll forward this to the "Vote Chess game 2" thread.

[quote]everybody will have christmas, or holidays, and it is not fun, at least for me, if I don't see and "feel" what you play. We can say on the public forum that we decided the move and we want the envelope to adjourn, the supermods are our witnesses that we will not change the move after we "voted" it - is that right?)[/quote]- - -

Excellent! I just posted that proposal, with slight change, on "Vote Chess game 2".

- - -

Now I just have to post my move vote here. /* thinking, thinking ... */

Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-12-18 at 12:44
cheesehead is offline  
Old 2013-12-18, 18:28   #15
cheesehead
 
cheesehead's Avatar
 
"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA

769210 Posts
Default

Brian is consulting with his team about the adjournment proposal. No reply as of a few minutes ago.

- -

Meanwhile, I've decided that LaurV's confuse-them-by-offering-yet-another-pawn-capture move a4 is at least as good as consolidate-the-center move d4 for us.

However, Black has another reply to a4 we haven't yet considered, and it may be better than 17 ... cxd3 or 17 ... Nxe5 :

[B]17 a4 b4[/B]
I don't think they'll just let us tear up their Q-side pawns on our terms.

[B]18 d4[/B] holds our central pawn spike together but 18 ... bxc3 19 bxc3 Nd5 seems to have nuisance value. However, that knight can't be in two places (i.e., Nf5) at once, so we could do 20 Ng5.
Now 20 ... f6 21 exf6 isn't a piece-fork ... but it still leaves their e-pawn undefended: 21 ... Bxf6 22 Nxe6 ... which in turn leaves their N/d5 undefended and attacked by our B/g2. If the N/d5 moves, that would leave the B/f6 [I]en prise[/I].

Here the Black king can advance to join in, with 22 ... Ke7 but that would take away a repositioning square for their N/c6 23 Nc5

Suppose instead 18 ... bxc3 19 bxc3 Nf5. Kinda familiar on the K-side. Now 20 Rb1 threatens winning a piece with 21 Ng5 and 22 Bxc6+. 20 ...Kd7 shores up Black's position a little. 21 Ng5 f6 22 exf6 Bxf6 23 g4 Nxe3 24 Rxf6 Nxg2 25 Kxg2 Nxd4+ 26 Rxb7+ Rxb7 27 cxd4 Rb6 28 Rf7+ and 29 R or N takes h7. Could be an interesting endgame, but I sense that Black may be better here.

[b]18 cxb4[/b]

I'm still looking at Black responses here ... but I'm preparing to leave to see a movie and don't have time for proper analysis now.

I'll be back this evening around 0200 GMT.

(Until then, I vote 17 d4 - 5 because it looks safest. Maybe after I can analyze Black responses to [b]17 a4 b4 18 cxb4[/b] I'll think 17 a4 is better.)
cheesehead is offline  
Old 2013-12-19, 03:46   #16
cheesehead
 
cheesehead's Avatar
 
"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA

22×3×641 Posts
Default

As you could also see in the "Vote Chess game 2" thread, Batalov said he could hold the "envelope" PM with our move.

Brian said they'd be happy to adjourn, and also "If we could time one of your moves for the week 13th-17th January that would be useful for me as I have exams that week."

I see no reason not to accommodate Brian and have our 18th move deadline be January 18, by one of two different methods specified in the "Vote Chess game 2" thread:

Method 1 puts the burden of replying exactly on seventh day (no sooner) on each team (for two weeks):
1) Resumption date January 4, when our 17th move will be revealed by Batalov,
Gekkos' 17th move deadline would be January 11.
Then if Gekkos don't post 17th move until that day (no earlier than January 11),
then Pirates' 18th move deadline would be January 18, and if we hold our posting until January 18 (no sooner), then Gekkos' 18th move deadline would be January 25.

Method 2 puts the burden of replying exactly on seventh day (no sooner) on Batalov (for two weeks):
2) Or if Batalov will agree, both teams can send their moves by PM to him for two further weeks, and he:
posts Pirates' 17th move on January 4,
posts Gekko's 17th move on January 11, and
posts Pirates' 18th move on January 18.

- - -

Now, where's my analysis board for [B]17 a4 b4 18 cxb4 [/B]...

Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-12-19 at 03:55
cheesehead is offline  
Old 2013-12-19, 05:39   #17
cheesehead
 
cheesehead's Avatar
 
"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA

22×3×641 Posts
Default

[B]17 a4 b4
18 cxb4[/B][B] axb4
19 dxc4[/B]

19 ... Bxe5? 20 Nxe5 Nxe5 21 Bf4 Nec6 22 Bxc6+ Nxc6 23 Bxb8 Nxb8
or 22 ... Bxc6 23 Bxe5
or 21 ... f6 22 Re1 Bxg2 23 Bxe5 fxe5 24 Kxg2 and I like our chances here.

19 ... Nxe5 20 Bf4 Bxf3 21 Bxe5 Bxg2 22 Bxb8 Bxf1 23 Kxf1 b3 24 Ra3
and I like our chances here.

19 ... Nf5 20 Bc5

[B]19 d4[/B]
19 ... Nd5 20 Rc1 Na5

- -

[B]17 a4 b4[/B]
[B]18 dxc4 bxc3
19 Nxc3[/B] looks okay for us.

- -

So I vote for 17 a4, too, but not emphatically:

17 a4 - 3
17 d4 - 3

Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-12-19 at 05:44
cheesehead is offline  
Old 2013-12-19, 18:52   #18
cheesehead
 
cheesehead's Avatar
 
"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA

22·3·641 Posts
Default

The more I look at [b]17 a4 b4[/b] the more I see that our current a3-b2-c3 pawn formation prevents further incursion unless Black sacs. Note that Black can't play b5-b4 without allowing us the opportunity to capture axb4, thus opening up the half-file in front of our a-rook. Once we play a4, we give that up!

So,
[B]17 a4 b4[/B]
[B]18 dxc4 bxc3
19 Nxc3[/B]

looks worse than when I considered it last night.

My move vote is

17 d4 - 5
17 a4 - 2
cheesehead is offline  
Old 2013-12-20, 02:00   #19
LaurV
Romulan Interpreter
 
LaurV's Avatar
 
Jun 2011
Thailand

2×3×7×233 Posts
Default

[QUOTE=cheesehead;362444]As you could also see in the "Vote Chess game 2" thread, Batalov said he could hold the "envelope" PM with our move.

Brian said they'd be happy to adjourn, and also "If we could time one of your moves for the week 13th-17th January that would be useful for me as I have exams that week."

I see no reason not to accommodate Brian and have our 18th move deadline be January 18, by one of two different methods specified in the "Vote Chess game 2" thread[/QUOTE]
Works to me. Fully agree with that.
LaurV is offline  
Old 2013-12-20, 02:16   #20
cheesehead
 
cheesehead's Avatar
 
"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA

22·3·641 Posts
Default

Well, it's less than 7 hours until the deadline for our move 17.

I've looked a long time at 17 a4, as you requested, LaurV. It may be okay, but it gives Black more chances on the Q-side with 17 ... b4 than if we kept our a-pawn where it is.

I'm comfortable with 17 d4, Halsdorf is comfortable with d4, and it doesn't actually rule out a later a4 push (although that would have more impact with the d-pawn able to take the c-pawn). It does leave us with weaker squares at d3 and e4, but Black's going to have lots of trouble exploiting them, and e5 will be much stronger for us.

So, I'm sending the move

[b]17 d4[/b]

to Batalov via PM. Although we don't yet have 100% absolutely unquestioned agreement from the Gekkos about the adjournment procedure, this PM will timestamp our move and Batalov can post that timestamp for the Gekkos information.

Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-12-20 at 02:17
cheesehead is offline  
Old 2013-12-20, 09:22   #21
LaurV
Romulan Interpreter
 
LaurV's Avatar
 
Jun 2011
Thailand

2×3×7×233 Posts
Default

[QUOTE=cheesehead;362511]
So, I'm sending the move
[B]17 d4[/B]
to Batalov via PM.[/QUOTE]
Ok, perfect, we trust you :razz:
LaurV is offline  
Old 2013-12-20, 16:23   #22
cheesehead
 
cheesehead's Avatar
 
"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA

22·3·641 Posts
Default

Correction of spelling of the plural of our worthy opponents' team name (though they haven't complained):[QUOTE=cheesehead;362511]< snip >
Although we don't yet have 100% absolutely unquestioned agreement from the [/QUOTE][strike]Gekkos[/strike] Geckos (or Gekkota) [quote]about the adjournment procedure, this PM will timestamp our move and Batalov can post that timestamp for the [/quote][strike]Gekkos[/strike] Geckos' (or Gekkota's) [quote]information.[/quote]
cheesehead is offline  
 

Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
White 21 cheesehead Game 2 - ♔♕♙♘♖♙ - Shaolin Pirates 26 2014-02-24 18:24
White 20 cheesehead Game 2 - ♔♕♙♘♖♙ - Shaolin Pirates 23 2014-02-13 08:04
White 19 cheesehead Game 2 - ♔♕♙♘♖♙ - Shaolin Pirates 12 2014-01-31 20:14
White 18 cheesehead Game 2 - ♔♕♙♘♖♙ - Shaolin Pirates 16 2014-01-24 22:11
White 16 LaurV Game 2 - ♔♕♙♘♖♙ - Shaolin Pirates 15 2013-12-08 10:49

All times are UTC. The time now is 12:24.


Fri Oct 22 12:24:55 UTC 2021 up 91 days, 6:53, 1 user, load averages: 1.03, 1.08, 1.18

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum has received and complied with 0 (zero) government requests for information.

Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation.
A copy of the license is included in the FAQ.