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Old 2019-11-26, 16:46   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
This is why I believe the death penalty is a seriously bad idea.
What about cases where there is incontrovertible proof. Example: a bandit shots someone during a bank robbery and is caught in the bank while continuously in view of multiple people. Second example: a serial killer that is caught with bodies on their property or in their fridge and they admit to it and provide details with out prompting. Third example: a killing (like some of the racially motivated ones in the US south) with multiple people involved and multiple witnesses and people that knew it was being planned?

Would those example be acceptable uses to you?
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Old 2019-11-26, 17:19   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncwilly View Post
Would those example be acceptable uses to you?
Nope.

That's not justice, that's vengeance. IMAO, of course.
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Old 2019-11-26, 17:46   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
That's not justice, that's vengeance. IMAO, of course.
What is your full definition of "justice"? And what is the purpose of incarceration?
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Old 2019-11-26, 17:58   #48
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Originally Posted by ewmayer View Post
<snip>
Dr S, if the leaker(s) turn out to have annoying personalities and are in-your-opinion narcissistic, will you be calling loudly for their death by slow torture?
Your suggestion is otiose. My guess is, whatever their personality or personalities, if they're caught, they will be tortured into making "confessions" -- before being shot by firing squad.
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Old 2019-11-26, 21:18   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewmayer View Post
One of the leaked documents is a judgement in a court case. I downloaded the pdf of the English translation and copy/pasted a few passages to a text file. I replaced the black-rectangle redactions of names with X's.
Quote:
<snip>
Qakilik County People's Procuratorate accuses the defendant XXXXXXXX of incitement of ethnic hatred and ethnic discrimination. On December 2016, during the work of Qakilik Country's 36th corps, No. 315 National Highway, at the temporary worker quarters of the Sandstone Factory, he incited extremist religious thoughts in his colleagues XXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX and others such as: Do not say dirty words, do not watch porn or you will become a kafir (non-believer), if you don't pray and watch porn, your soul will not be clean for 40 days and God will not accept your prayers. If you eat without praying, you will become a kafir. If you do not pray, you will be in hell and God will not forgive you. All people who do not pray are Han Chinese kafirs. You cannot eat food from women who do not pray. You cannot eat food from people who smoke and drink alcohol.

The defendant XXXXXXXX acknowledged his crime. During the trial, he said that he committed these crimes because of his low legal awareness and low level of education and that he was guilty. He asked the judge to deal with him leniently and give him a chance to become a good man.

The counsel for defendant XXXXXXXX said "his deeds constitute a crime and the People's Procuratorate's accusation against him is correct. Both the defendant, XXXXXXXX, and I have no argument against this accusation. Due to the defendant's low legal awareness and education level, he was easily susceptible to being misguided and committing crimes. He's guilty. This is his first criminal record and I ask the court to deal with him leniently".
<snip>
The court found through its examination that all facts and evidence was collected and confirmed in legal ways. This court believes that the defendant, XXXXXXXX, spreading Halal (the Islamic ways of determining what is legal) and Haram (the Islamic ways of determining what is illegal) to others to incite ethnic hatred and ethnic discrimination constitutes a crime. The facts are clear and the evidence has been confirmed. According to the facts and nature of the crime committed by the defendant XXXXXXXX, the circumstances, and the harm that has been done to society, this court, according to Chapter 249, Chapter 55 and Chapter 58 of the Criminal Code of the People's Republic of China, makes the following verdict:

The defendant XXXXXXXX, for the crime of inciting ethnic hatred and ethnic discrimination, is sentenced to prison for ten years and the deprivation of political rights for five years.
<snip>
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Old 2019-11-26, 22:25   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncwilly View Post
What is your full definition of "justice"? And what is the purpose of incarceration?
Justice: t's too complex for a snap response to give a full and considered response. Later.

There are, again IMAO, several purposes for incarceration. One is to remove the incarcerated to a place where they can not do physical harm to anyone not in the place of incarfceration. Another is to (attempt to) change their behaviour so that after release they are (preferably much) less likely to engage in future harmful behaviour. Another is to make explicit a general societal disapproval of behaviour leading to incarceration. Yet another is, indeed, a vengeance reaction.

All this is stuff which people should have learned some time between the ages of, say, 8 and 15 years of age. It was certainly part of my general school education.
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Old 2019-11-26, 23:18   #51
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We also discussed it here a few years ago:
https://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=21364
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Old 2019-11-26, 23:21   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
There are, again IMAO, several purposes for incarceration. One is to remove the incarcerated to a place where they can not do physical harm to anyone not in the place of incarfceration. ... Another is to make explicit a general societal disapproval of behaviour leading to incarceration.
I will assume that you agree with these 2 purposes.

Does not the elimination of the individual also accomplish these aims? And when the crime is such that there is no period of time which will achieve proper penitence, is not the end of the perp's consuming resources warranted? On a large starship to Alpha-Epsilon, would not this be the case?

Does your objection have any exceptions under any circumstances?
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Old 2019-11-27, 09:18   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncwilly View Post
I will assume that you agree with these 2 purposes.

Does not the elimination of the individual also accomplish these aims? And when the crime is such that there is no period of time which will achieve proper penitence, is not the end of the perp's consuming resources warranted? On a large starship to Alpha-Epsilon, would not this be the case?

Does your objection have any exceptions under any circumstances?
It removes the possibility of other societal benefits which you have carefully omitted.
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Old 2019-11-27, 13:09   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
It removes the possibility of other societal benefits which you have carefully omitted.
I'm not sure what "the possibility of other societal benefits" is supposed to mean here. You have carefully omitted naming any. Such a "possibility" seems so far-fetched to me, that claiming that Uncwilly "carefully omitted" it is risible.

I can't think of any "social benefits" to the State keeping, say, Charles Manson alive for 50 years, as opposed to killing him as the jury in his case mandated.

Incidentally, killing a criminal condemned to death is a homicide. It is classified as "justifiable homicide," the legal justification being that it is executing a sentence imposed by a court of law. However, I am reminded of Ambrose Bierce's observation that "There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and praiseworthy," (my emphasis), and feel that legal executions are often of the fourth kind.
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Old 2019-11-27, 13:54   #55
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Disucssions of this nature are difficult on an international forum as we all have different cultural norms and even languages.

When someone committed a crime in mediaeval times, tracking them down and punishing them was the responsibility of the victim.
The problem was that people had a tendency to go too far, so the family of the original perpetrator would retaliate, then the family of the original victim would strike back again,
and before you knew it you had a full-blown blood feud which could last for generations.
One of the main historical reasons for nation states taking over criminal justice was to dampen these dynamics.
If you hear a victim complain today that the culprit was not punished severely enough, it may simply be a sign that your criminal justice system is working as originally intended.
From this point of view, the death penaly has no place as it is not a lighter version of any punishment.

From a behavioural point of view, we punish someone if there is something important that
  • they should have learned
  • they haven't learned
  • they are judged to be capable of learning (belatedly)
Only if all 3 hold will a court impose a punishment, as a way of teaching the culprit a lesson.
From this point of view, the death penaly does not make sense either as killing someone does not teach them anything.

Finally, the death penalty is outlawed throughout Europe because we consider it inhumane and degrading.
In that sense, we spare people not only for their own sake but also for ours -
a society which kills people scars itself.
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