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Old 2016-02-14, 17:59   #23
xilman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davar55 View Post
You should know better than to be an anti-mimic.

Your definitions and comprehension of socialism and communism are
sorely lacking. Their harm has been extraordinary.
I am using exactly the same arguments, in form and substance, which you yourself have employed. Are you suggesting that your own style and arguments are defective?

Your second sentence is also curious. I've given the textbook definition of communism --- that the means of economic production are held in common --- which suggests that either you have not read your textbooks or you have forgotten what you've studied.

I completely agree with the claim, not made by you here, that some imperfect implementations of communism have been profoundly harmful.

I claim, with much support from historians and economists, that some imperfect implementations of capitalism have been profoundly harmful. Our old friends Adolf and Benito may be taken as representatives of two such implementations.
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Old 2016-02-14, 20:28   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kladner View Post
The world has never seen perfect Socialism, any more than perfect Capitalism.
Do not fault others for taking a different approach from yours. There is a chance that capitalism can be improved by moderating its self-serving aspects. This is usually called "government regulation." That government regulation improves upon capitalism when it moderates the inherent selfishness with the more Socialist concepts of Promoting the General Welfare.
Perfect socialism has existed - it is called communism. A failure system.

Of course capitalism as we know it can be improved, approaching perfection.
Promoting the general welfare (as in wealth fair) is what capitalism does best.
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Old 2016-02-14, 20:30   #25
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That you think socialism and communism are one and the same speaks to your ignorance.

Educate yourself: http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Socialism
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Old 2016-02-14, 20:35   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
I am using exactly the same arguments, in form and substance, which you yourself have employed. Are you suggesting that your own style and arguments are defective?
Your second sentence is also curious. I've given the textbook definition of communism --- that the means of economic production are held in common --- which suggests that either you have not read your textbooks or you have forgotten what you've studied.
I completely agree with the claim, not made by you here, that some imperfect implementations of communism have been profoundly harmful.
I claim, with much support from historians and economists, that some imperfect implementations of capitalism have been profoundly harmful. Our old friends Adolf and Benito may be taken as representatives of two such implementations.
Your textbook is not from the capitalist community, and your definition of
communism is simply insufficient. Your historians and economists are
not just suspect but wrong. Fascism and communism both are anti-capitalism.

Perfect communism, the end result of socialism, would be the death of humanity.
Is that where you are aiming?!

Stop reading socialist propaganda about socialism and capitalism.
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Old 2016-02-14, 20:36   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wombatman View Post
That you think socialism and communism are one and the same speaks to your ignorance.
Educate yourself: http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Socialism
Read the first sentence yourself and get back to me.

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Old 2016-02-14, 20:39   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
I am using exactly the same arguments, in form and substance, which you yourself have employed. Are you suggesting that your own style and arguments are defective?
No, and no. Are you? About yours?
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Old 2016-02-14, 20:44   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davar55 View Post
Read the first sentence yourself and get back to me.

I'm certain you think you unleashed a zinger here, but you make no sense.

Quote:
Perfect socialism has existed - it is called communism.
You equated socialism and communism. They are emphatically NOT the same system of governance or economy.
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Old 2016-02-14, 21:03   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wombatman View Post
I'm certain you think you unleashed a zinger here, but you make no sense.
You equated socialism and communism. They are emphatically NOT the same system of governance or economy.
I do not release zingers. Posting is not a game.

Communism is the end result of socialism over time.
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Old 2016-02-14, 21:08   #31
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I see now what your "first sentence" statement referred to. You'd have done well to read further:

Quote:
"Socialism" is sometimes used interchangeably with "communism" but the two philosophies have some stark differences. Most notably, while communism is a political system, socialism is primarily an economic system that can exist in various forms under a wide range of political systems.
In other words, the two might exist together, but they are not the same.
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Old 2016-02-14, 21:19   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wombatman View Post
I see now what your "first sentence" statement referred to. You'd have done well to read further:
...
In other words, the two might exist together, but they are not the same.
Both of them are socio-economic systems.

They differ only in that communism is the extreme final form of socialism;
and communism is a failure system.
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Old 2016-02-15, 04:20   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davar55 View Post
Perfect socialism has existed - it is called communism. A failure system.
You are wrong. The system itself is not a failure. To be clear, I was fighting against communism in my country, and I am not a lover of it. The problem with communism, one of the problems, in fact, is that the people's level of conscience and self-responsibility is not high enough to follow the ideology. The ideology is "good", or call it "populist" if you like, but people are people, and they try to take advantages of the system. They see the neighbors working less, and getting the same benefits from the "common" (be it the government, state, colhoz, whatever), then they think "why should I work more?". This affects the productivity on long term, (same story as with the deflation, take any article about deflation you have on your "capitalist" surroundings, substitute "deflation" with "communism" and read it again, to see why the communism is counter-productive - or at least, that is what the people say about them, deflation and communism) but also, most important, it affects the feedback, therefore affecting how the system itself works. Like most of you coming from math/physics/computers background, you know that no system can work without a feedback. And in communism, the feedback is non existent. Or worse, it is wrong. How the "feedback" is affected, well, the simplest example, imagine in agriculture, someone in top "decides" that few counties have to plant corn. They do. At the end of the year, they will get the same resources allocated no mater how much corn they make, because "everybody is equal". This affects productivity, so the guy in top promises bonuses to the county making more corn per hectare. Moreover, the one making less will be blamed in the newspapers and shown on TV like a "black sheep" and "enemy of the class". The agronomists talk to each other, and they are proud sons of the beaches, so at the end of the year, they make 4000 kg corn per hectare, but they will boast to their colleagues they made 5000. The colleagues think "how this guy made more than myself?" and they don't want to appear less qualified, to "lose face", like my Thai colleagues would say, and they report to their regional bosses 6000. The bosses think the same, and they report 7000 to the county's secretaries, who also talk between themselves, and boast, and they report to the guy on top (the one giving the order to plant corn) they made 8000 kg of corn per hectare. When in reality, the production is only 4000. Then the guy on top says, "ok, you got 8000, perfect, then you keep 4000 for yourself" (i.e. local consumption, to pay your people, etc), "and give 4000 for the common" (i.e the contract from which the cities are feed, the country's exports, etc). But the guy only has 5000, or 6000, (not only 4000 because not all engineers/etc/chains were so dishonest, only few). And he never has enough for the local people. There is also not enough for the cities, as there there are other "chains" (you think about).

We had this joke during the communism that says that one day, the machine of the communism stopped working; the guys in charge (Stalin, Ceausescu, Brejnev, Mao, whoever, put your favorite guy there) were extremely scared, and they called all the scientists to repair it, promising huge advantages to the guy who can fix it; but no one could fix it; everybody was desperate, etc.; suddenly, a little engineer from a far town went under the machine, did some magic, and the machine started humming again; everybody was very happy; they asked what the problem was; the little engineer replied: "The gasoline. Somehow it didn't go to the engine, it was going only to the horn".

So, everybody is talking, but only few are doing. And all want "advantages" and "equality" from the state. But the guys on top are "more equal" then others. I don't have my (economics) vocabulary to explain it here, but you understand what I want to say.

Therefore not the system is the problem, but the people making the system. Which made the "visionary" economists to say from the start, 100 years ago, that the human conscience will never be so high, or at least, not in the near future, to make a system as the communism work. They said it for 60 years. And after communism went down in most of the countries in the 80s, they all, the economists and politicians around the world, started taping each-others' shoulders and backs and say "didn't we told you so?" (even if some of them never said it, or foreseen it).

But they were, and are, all wrong. This is the "economist" inside LaurV talking. That is why I put "visionary" in quotes. All these people, from 50 to 20 years ago, could not foresee the technological progress. They could not foresee the 5 years old children all having smartphones, and chips implanted in our passports and in our hands. Maybe some of them, like Carl Sagan, Alvin Toffler, and other few "visionary" guys saw it, but they were not as much economists as futurologists.

The communism is bound to come back. Hard. What the people's conscience can't achieve, will be achieved by the technological progress. I see a society not where "everybody is equal", but where "everybody gets from the society as much as his contribution to the society is". That is what the communism was all about, and in a society where not only all your neighbors and friends (and enemies) know exactly what your contribution to the society is, but also the people from the opposite side of the globe know it, in the same instant, in that society you can not run, and you can not hide. And that is communism. Coming back. No mater how it will be called.

Think about it.

Maybe we are too old to see it. But our children will see it.

Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2016-02-15 at 04:33
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