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Old 2016-06-18, 16:53   #23
xilman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
Until I learn more I'll follow the lone nut-case
theory and keep an open mind as to what the supposed justification may be.
Having learned more, I'm more inclined to follow the lone nut-case line.
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Old 2016-06-19, 19:26   #24
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A further comment on Brexit --- the Scottish position.

Not everyone here follows the minutiae of British politics, understandably IMO, so here's a brief update. Recently the Scots voted on the proposition "Scotland should become an independent country, yes or no". The referendum result was that the Union should remain (relatively) unchanged. The Scottish National Party lost the referendum but gained a landslide in the subsequent general election, taking around 90% of the seats.

As far as can be told, there is a comfortable majority within Scotland for remaining part of the EU. The SNP has threatened to push for another independence vote in the event of a UK-wide majority for Brexit coupled with a Scottish majority vote for remaining.

My personal view is that the English should be given a vote on the question "England should become an independent country, yes or no?" regardless of the EU situation. The Act of Union passed only because Scotland was then close to bankrupt. Investigating the history is left as an exercise for the reader but the word "Darien" might be a useful search term.
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Old 2016-06-19, 19:59   #25
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My personal view is that the English should be given a vote on the question "England should become an independent country, yes or no?" regardless of the EU situation.
This is a new trend, we got it in Belgium as well. A part of a country that is better off according to some criteria wants to secede. Perhaps England should be restricted to the City, Kent and the university grounds of Cambridge and Oxford ? The rest could be handed over to Wales and Scotland :-)

Jacob

It is funny : the country is called the UNITED kingdom and the motto of Belgium is "UNITY makes strength."
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Old 2016-06-19, 20:22   #26
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Originally Posted by S485122 View Post
This is a new trend, we got it in Belgium as well. A part of a country that is better off according to some criteria wants to secede. Perhaps England should be restricted to the City, Kent and the university grounds of Cambridge and Oxford ? The rest could be handed over to Wales and Scotland :-)

Jacob

It is funny : the country is called the UNITED kingdom and the motto of Belgium is "UNITY makes strength."
If you had read my post, a part of the country that was not better off according to some criteria held the referendum and the overwhelmingly popular political party representing that part was strongly in favour of independence. In my view and, it appears, many others the economic case was not made to the satisfaction of the majority.

Although satire, B'Stard's Fence has appeal to a number of people here, even though I don't support it myself. North American readers may wish to compare and contrast with Trump's Fence.

Last fiddled with by xilman on 2016-06-19 at 20:23 Reason: Fix typ
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Old 2016-06-19, 22:08   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
Although satire, B'Stard's Fence has appeal to a number of people here, even though I don't support it myself. North American readers may wish to compare and contrast with Trump's Fence.
You mean Obama's fence, the one Trump wants to 'do right'?

BTW, I have long advocated for the idea of extending the natural barrier formed by the Rio Grande via a moat stocked with wildlife - including of course, the toothy variety - and riverine plants, and am happy to see Obama is now openly broaching that option. Could make for a great New-Deal-style jobs-creating infrastructure project, and much greener than a fence or wall, at least of the non-hedgerow variety. Hmm, that gives me an idea ... why stop at a moat ... how about a giant shrubbery? The Pythons would surely approve.
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Old 2016-06-19, 22:25   #28
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BTW, I have long advocated for the idea of extending the natural barrier formed by the Rio Grande via a moat stocked with wildlife...
What about the unprotected border to the north? Aren't you afraid the stoned Canadians are going to come down and burn your Capitol? Again.

Actually, perhaps it is Canada which needs to build a wall. Apparently the inquiries for migration from the US of A to Canada has increased greatly since Trump became a non-zero possibility as PotUS.
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Old 2016-06-20, 05:06   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
If you had read my post, a part of the country that was not better off according to some criteria held the referendum ...
I have read it. The periphery of nations wanting independence is an old trend (Scotland, Ireland in the UK, Part of Ireland having achieved that goal. Brittany, Corsica in France...) Most of the time those parts are economically below average.

The new trend I was referring to, is the wish of regions like Lombardy in Italy, Catalonia in Spain, and so on, to secede Since you seemed in favour of (a vote about) England independence I though it was part of that trend.

Jacob

I must admit I did not research Act of the union or Darien...
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Old 2016-06-20, 10:26   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewmayer View Post
You mean Obama's fence, the one Trump wants to 'do right'?

BTW, I have long advocated for the idea of extending the natural barrier formed by the Rio Grande via a moat stocked with wildlife - including of course, the toothy variety - and riverine plants, and am happy to see Obama is now openly broaching that option. Could make for a great New-Deal-style jobs-creating infrastructure project, and much greener than a fence or wall, at least of the non-hedgerow variety. Hmm, that gives me an idea ... why stop at a moat ... how about a giant shrubbery? The Pythons would surely approve.
Thanks for the link. I hadn't read the details before. Having done so it appears that Obama's fence has English equivalents in Offa's Dike and Hadrian's Wall. IMO, B'Stard's Fence and Trump's Fence would have much more commonality in technology and effectiveness.
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Old 2016-06-21, 09:32   #31
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My take:

Interdependence

The referendum on the UK membership of the European Union is being closely watched by the people of The Netherlands. The Dutch are as much a member of the EU as the British are, but the very different characteristics of our nation makes it that we appreciate it differently as well, although the resentment against yet another level of bureaucracy is the same.

Our nation being smaller, bordering other countries and with the major rivers of the continent leading to the Dutch shore, has forced us early on to coordinate all our actions and policies with surrounding nations. This includes the UK, which is considered our closest ally on all economic and foreign relations policies. A strong UK is therefore considered to be in the Dutch national interest.

Unlike Germany, France and the UK we are more dependant on other countries (but not that much) and have learned about their dependence on us. We experienced an ever increasing interdependence, the mutual dependence on each other.

The degree of this interdependency has increased a lot during the last century due to higher transportation efficiencies and other factors, and will continue to increase further in the foreseeable future. A country cannot declare independence and then assume that it is. A nation or region can only accommodate its' level of interdependence and so maximize its influence.

Contrary to popular thinking, a country is not governed by politicians voted into power by the electorate, but rather by the effects of the daily choices people make when living their lives. A chosen government can set policies that deviate from the peoples actions, but only a very little and guaranteed to be corrected if pursued too long. If the British people would vote to leave the EU, but continue to import and export as they do today, and continue to travel abroad as they do, the necessary coordination by setting laws, rules and regulations will remain at a continental level rather than shifting back to national level.

Likewise we look with some amazement at Norway and Switzerland. They implement nearly every law and regulation passed in Brussels in order to avoid practical anomalies. They just give up their right to vote in Brussels in return for a right to be heard there and for the illusion that they are less part of a strongly interdependent continent.

It is all geography that caused these effects. The UK joined the EU later because it has no land borders as the founding countries have. Norway has a small population with enormous oil revenues that allow it to go with the flow of the EU decisions and pay for negative effects of being outside the decision process. The Swiss economy only differs from the rest of Europe precisely because its banking rules are not as transparent as demanded by the other European nations, also known as 'Brussels'. Banks in Switzerland have historically been safe because it is difficult to invade a mountain area.

The Scottish people, in their referendum, have shown to understand that their interests are better served in a greater UK constellation than when on their own. Now it is time for all the British people to acknowledge that the relative small diluting of national interests within the EU constellation is far offset by the British power being multiplied in Europe and world wide through coordinating its' interest with its' neighbours.
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Old 2016-06-22, 06:23   #32
LaurV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S485122 View Post
This is a new trend, we got it in Belgium as well.
Huh? That country is as big as a pingpong ball, what do you want to split there?
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Old 2016-06-22, 07:51   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
A further comment on Brexit --- the Scottish position.
Off topic a bit:
Do you think an independence referendum would pass after a Brexit? One of the arguments I saw was that if the Scots split off, they would no longer be part of the Eurozone, and would not qualify to join it post-split. If they leave the Eurozone anyway, it removes that particular reason for staying attached to countries with incorrectly numbered monarchs.
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