mersenneforum.org  

Go Back   mersenneforum.org > Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search > Hardware

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2021-05-31, 22:08   #23
kriesel
 
kriesel's Avatar
 
"TF79LL86GIMPS96gpu17"
Mar 2017
US midwest

22·1,451 Posts
Default

Maybe we should base it on silicon in the form of TB SSDs. There's lots of silicon compounds available on the surface, no need to descend into underground mines. Anyone caught counterfeiting silicon does serious time. Inflation in the money supply would provide practical utility.

Gold, silver, bronze, and copper have practical utility, in medicine, as catalysts, as electrical conductors or as implants, etc. Fiat paper currency has low practical utility, after hyperinflation, such as for fuel or wallpaper or stuffing in the holes of worn out garments or footwear or broken windows.
Not that I am enthusiastic about carrying around actual gold or silver, which in large amounts can get quite HEAVY. But I'm old enough to remember common circulation of "silver certificates", which were exchangeable ("redeemable") at least in principle for actual precious metal, I think without conversion charge or tax. Since people seldom redeemed them, one could make the case that some sort of fractional reserve of metal backing would be sufficient in normal times. The gold or bimetal standard had the virtue that governments had to possess some actual assets. (Although there seems no limit to their ability to create overwhelming debt.)

Even the penny has been debased, with now a lot of zinc and little copper content, reducing its density and mass. Originally 100% Cu, now 2.5%.

Last fiddled with by kriesel on 2021-05-31 at 22:49
kriesel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2021-06-01, 21:57   #24
ewmayer
2ω=0
 
ewmayer's Avatar
 
Sep 2002
RepĂșblica de California

101101100011002 Posts
Default

Not to promote further straying-off-topic - "money: whence it came, where it went" (h/t John K. Galbraith) discussions should be continued in Soap Box - but thinking of money solely or mostly in terms of its "store of value" aspect is much too narrow. More pertinent to the "cost of cryptocurrencies" theme is its function as a medium of exchange. Most modern transactions don't involve physical fiat but occur electronically. So one might compare, say, the overhead cost and security level of a credit or debit-card purchase with the coin-mining and network-associated costs of a crypto transaction. A Dutch economist recently crunched the numbers and came up with this estimate: "Each bitcoin transaction uses the same amount of power as 436,000 through the Visa payment system."

It would be interesting to see an analogous estimate for the SSD-based crypto, including the complete supply-chain and manufacturing cost of all those drives, and the cost of running them as intensively as the time-for-space-trading algorithm entails.

Last fiddled with by ewmayer on 2021-06-02 at 21:03
ewmayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2021-06-01, 22:25   #25
chalsall
If I May
 
chalsall's Avatar
 
"Chris Halsall"
Sep 2002
Barbados

7×1,423 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ewmayer View Post
Most modern transactions don't involve physical fiat but occur electronically.
We all understand that Money is just a field in a spreadsheet. The question is, who's spreadsheet?

Friction is a serious thing in economic theory.
chalsall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2021-06-03, 00:48   #26
storm5510
Random Account
 
storm5510's Avatar
 
Aug 2009

7BF16 Posts
Default

I have not been anywhere near this place in close to a month. I decided to take a peek.

I learned about Chia's existence just a few days ago. Those who dabble in this call it "farming." I read the larger the storage capacity, the longer the life of any type of storage device will be. True or false, I have no idea. SSD's are not recommended.

I did a little research on drives. There are lots of large capacity drives, but not what most participating is this would want. The article I read spoke of 30TB or more. I wondered how they could reach this capacity, then it hit me. RAID. I did some browsing for pre-fab enclosures. I found a few. I suspect there are some DIY racks being built.

I will admit I do not know much about RAID beyond the basics. There is mirroring and striping. To get the capacity these people want, they would have to run their drives in a stripe setup. One article I quickly browsed mentioned a parity-drive. I was under the impression parity went out the window a long time ago.

In any case, if this really catches on, drive prices will rise and availability will drop. The simple law of supply and demand. Anyone going this route thinking their initial investment would be less than a group of GPU's are in for an awakening. I have a few extra drives here. They are not going anywhere either.
storm5510 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2021-06-03, 02:27   #27
tServo
 
tServo's Avatar
 
"Marv"
May 2009
near the TannhÀuser Gate

66910 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by storm5510 View Post
I have not been anywhere near this place in close to a month. I decided to take a peek.

I learned about Chia's existence just a few days ago. Those who dabble in this call it "farming." I read the larger the storage capacity, the longer the life of any type of storage device will be. True or false, I have no idea. SSD's are not recommended.


.
I remember reading an article 3 or 4 years ago in which a hardware tester got a handful of 256GB SSD drives, one from each major manufacturer, and started a torture test on the lot and let it run 24/7 to see how robust SSDs were. The drives were hobbyist level and NOT enterprise drives. Extensive writes of varying block sizes and patterns were followed by read verifications. The error logs were preserved for later analysis. My biggest take away was that the drives were amazingly robust. Recoverable Errors generally started showing up after 8 or 9 months and most of the drives failed at about the 1 year mark. I can't remember which brand won, but they were all fairly close.


I wonder why they do not recommend SSDs.
tServo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2021-06-03, 08:18   #28
mackerel
 
mackerel's Avatar
 
Feb 2016
UK

23·5·11 Posts
Default

Chia works in two parts.

One is creating the data files, which they call plotting. This is the part which can be sped up by using SSDs, but the quantity of writes to them could wear them out quickly. Small consumer drives might be worn out in days/weeks depending on how fast you can actually write to them.

The generated data files are then typically stored on HDs for the farming phase. HD performance doesn't matter here, so there is no advantage to using more expensive per capacity SSD, nor is there any benefit to raid. You don't gain from performance, and you lose capacity if you set up for redundancy.
mackerel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2021-06-03, 08:34   #29
retina
Undefined
 
retina's Avatar
 
"The unspeakable one"
Jun 2006
My evil lair

188F16 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mackerel View Post
One is creating the data files, which they call plotting. This is the part which can be sped up by using SSDs, but the quantity of writes to them could wear them out quickly.
I read that the usual plot size is ~100GB.

So could a machine with 128GB RAM fly through the plot phase much more quickly than an SSD? Then save to HDD/cloud/whatever and move to the next plot?
retina is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2021-06-03, 09:15   #30
mackerel
 
mackerel's Avatar
 
Feb 2016
UK

6708 Posts
Default

Unfortunately the temporary file size during plotting is stated as begin 239 GiB. A 256 GB ram system should have just enough for a ramdisk to do that, but this implies you need a HEDT system. I don't know how the CPU to storage speed balances out. Multiple slower but cheaper systems might work out better than one really fast expensive one.

Some calculations I did elsewhere. Note I have since given up on Chia. I'm never going to have the capacity to make it economic.
Quote:
Using the numbers given at https://www.chia.net/2021/02/22/plotting-basics.html I worked out the plotting life of a WD Green as an example of a low end SSD, and a 980 Pro as an example of a high end SSD. Assumes SSDs work for exactly their rated endurance then die, where in practice they may last much longer.

Normalised per TB of SSD space:

WD Green will do 189.5 plot files or about 20.6 TB of plot files.
980 Pro will do 341.1 plot files or about 37.1 TB of plot files.

I don't know what the sustained write speed of a WD Green is, but assuming you can saturate SATA you'll wear it out a 480GB model in just under 4 days. If it survives longer than that is due to low performance and only delaying the inevitable. Repeating similar with a 980 Pro 1 TB, which has TLC write speeds of 2000 MB/s, that'll wear out in 3.5 days.

Personally if I were to farm this on a large scale, I'd skip SSDs and just use a LOT of HDs in parallel. HDs in comparison wont wear out, and you just make the plotting operations more parallel to offset their lower performance.
mackerel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2021-06-03, 11:30   #31
Xyzzy
 
Xyzzy's Avatar
 
Aug 2002

8,311 Posts
Default

https://www.techpowerup.com/282821/s...-tbw-endurance
Xyzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2021-06-04, 18:59   #32
storm5510
Random Account
 
storm5510's Avatar
 
Aug 2009

3·661 Posts
Default

I want to throw out a for-instance here...

Western Digital offers a 3.5" 12TB internal hard drive. This would also fit into an external enclosure. NTFS, so I read, can support partitions up to 8PB (peta) on newer versions of Windows Server and Windows 10.

Several years ago, I had a 3TB drive for a short time. It would get so hot that I could not touch it, so I returned it. I did not think it would have much of a life. I was never able to get the entire capacity into a single partition. The partitioning tools I used wanted to split it into a 2TB partition and a 1TB partition.

So, if the 12TB drive I exampled would work with this "farming" process if it was split into six partitions of 2TB each. It seems like a special utility would be needed to get all 12TB into a single partition.

Note: I have heard of partitions referred to as volumes. I would guess the two terms are interchangeable.
storm5510 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2021-06-04, 19:27   #33
chalsall
If I May
 
chalsall's Avatar
 
"Chris Halsall"
Sep 2002
Barbados

100110111010012 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by storm5510 View Post
Note: I have heard of partitions referred to as volumes. I would guess the two terms are interchangeable.
Conflation. Volumes are built from Partitions.

"Bare-metal" vs RAID etc.

Depending on the situation, RAID-0 might be optimal. In others, RAID-6 could be your very good friend.

Last fiddled with by chalsall on 2021-06-04 at 19:32
chalsall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bizzare thought about graphics card shortage tServo Hardware 3 2021-04-27 17:43
Cryptocurrency pyramid scheme Blackadder Soap Box 47 2021-04-25 17:08
Is there hope for the GPU shortage on the horizon? tServo GPU Computing 15 2018-03-08 22:20
How Bad Is The Shortage? storm5510 Software 19 2009-08-17 00:27
Blend test causing pc to become non-responsive... enyceexdanny Information & Answers 4 2008-01-17 18:02

All times are UTC. The time now is 11:40.


Mon Oct 25 11:40:00 UTC 2021 up 94 days, 6:08, 0 users, load averages: 0.82, 0.95, 0.93

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum has received and complied with 0 (zero) government requests for information.

Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation.
A copy of the license is included in the FAQ.