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Old 2022-02-21, 22:15   #12
Dr Sardonicus
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S485122 View Post
The "West" has never acknowledged Russia's fear.
<snip>
I'm not sure what you mean by "acknowledge." Putin's demand that Ukraine be barred from NATO is known (acknowledged) but is not and never will be recognized as legitimate. Ukraine is an independent sovereign nation, and therefore has (borrowing from the Declaration of Independence) full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do.

I am reminded of events of a bit less than a century ago - September 1938 to be a bit more precise - where a failure to respect this principle made the term "appeasement" infamous.

Putin also laments the collapse the Soviet Union and is obviously seeking to resurrect Russian hegemony over the former Soviet republics.

I don't remember if he's bching about Czarist Russia selling the Alaska Territory to the US.
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Old 2022-02-22, 00:48   #13
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And even before the government's approval ("who needs the puppet government's approval anyway"), the now formal* troops invasion immediately proceeded...

_________
*they were there "informally" for 8 last years, anyway. Only, sure, "they bought their uniforms in the store"
Quote:
The journalist: But what about Ru uniform?
Putin: You can easily buy such uniform in almost any shop.
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Old 2022-02-22, 09:10   #14
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Comparisons to Sudetenland speech by one Adolf. https://www.dailywire.com/news/sure-...in-sudetenland
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Old 2022-02-22, 13:20   #15
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It seems Putin called Ukraine a "US colony" with a "puppet regime."

Do any Russians actually believe this nonsense? Or are they just going along so they can stay vertical?
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Old 2022-02-22, 14:13   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus View Post
It seems Putin called Ukraine a "US colony" with a "puppet regime."

Do any Russians actually believe this nonsense? Or are they just going along so they can stay vertical?
Not sure whether you are old enough to remember 1962.

I'm getting a sensation of dรฉjร  vu all over again. The parallels are really quite striking. More info on request if you don't see them.
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Old 2022-02-22, 21:26   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
Not sure whether you are old enough to remember 1962.

I'm getting a sensation of dรฉjร  vu all over again. The parallels are really quite striking. More info on request if you don't see them.
I was around in 1962 but the nearest event that connects is the Cuban Missle Crisis.
Is that what you are referring to?
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Old 2022-02-22, 23:18   #18
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Likewise, I (sort of) remember the Cuban Missile Crisis. I've learned more about it since, of course.

Any parallels between that and Russia's current designs on Ukraine are IMO quite strained.

Now in 1961, there was the Bay of Pigs invasion, which I don't recall hearing about at the time. This was a CIA operation rather than a military operation. Its objective was to overthrow Our Friend Fidel. It failed spectacularly. One consequence of the Cuban Missile Crisis was that the US promised not to invade Cuba again.

Gosh, maybe if we'd gotten some nuclear missiles into Ukraine in time, Russia would have left them alone!

The Russian Federation has, and has had treaties with Ukraine. By entering into them, Russia, ipso facto, recognized Ukraine as a sovereign nation. For example, The Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation was signed in 1997 and went into effect in 1999. This treaty had a ten-year renewal provision. It was renewed in 2009, but in 2019, Russia having violated Ukraine's sovereignty by its 2014 invasion and occupation of the Crimean Peninsula, it was not renewed, so is no longer in effect. But there other treaties still in effect. Although at this point, I reckon Putin regards them as mere "scraps of paper."

Since Viktor Yanukovych, Putin's lap-dog-in-office, ran to his master one step ahead of the firing squad in 2014, Putin has been trying to topple the Ukrainian government by means of proxies and covert operations. Apparently he has concluded that it's time to call in the professionals.
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Old 2022-02-23, 00:38   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus View Post

Gosh, maybe if we'd gotten some nuclear missiles into Ukraine in time, Russia would have left them alone!

.

We didn't have to because after the Soviet Union broke up, Ukraine was the world's third largest nuclear power.
In exchange for Ukaraine getting rid of them, both The USA and Russia guaranteed their security.
I'll bet they rue that day now.
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Old 2022-02-23, 01:41   #20
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It is understandable that it is a torture to listen to 50+ minutes of incoherent ramblings and grievances how "our land that 'we' (Lenin and Stalin) created out of mud and sticks has stole from 'us' and now is going to be invaded by NATO and bring NATO to our borders and on and on" (my imperfect translation, see the formal one from the horse's mouth) - but it is better than simply get the closing lines that most news outlets chunk out and then go on to commentary.

Just like Zelenskyy's speech (above), this one is remarkable in its own right. I've seen comparisons that Putin simply shed his fake shell and a monster crawled out. You can enable CC and then set translation to English/other in "Settings :: Auto-translate to ...":


Equally cringeworthy is the yesterday's full security council meeting that preceded the Putin's address to the nation (see the full version from State TV Channel 1 or this excerpt that makes one think they couldn't have made it up better if they'd scripted it... my feeling, though, is that they did and this guy simply is a bad student and learned his lines really poorly - this is from marker 1:22:10 in the full official video) -
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Old 2022-02-23, 09:55   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tServo View Post
I was around in 1962 but the nearest event that connects is the Cuban Missle Crisis.
Is that what you are referring to?
Cuba was a "Russian colony" ruled by a "puppet regime".

Then, as now, the US was remarkably open with its information, revealing technical capabilities it would normally keep quiet, especially at times of tension. For example, from radar the Soviets knew the height, position and speed of the U2 aircraft flying over Cuba. They could guess at its imaging capabilities. After photos were waved around in the UN, they knew them

Compare US recently shooting down several projected false-flag efforts and similar by the Russians, clearly revealing CIA and NSA capabilities.

Last fiddled with by xilman on 2022-02-23 at 19:06 Reason: Fix punctuation
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Old 2022-02-23, 12:44   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by "acknowledge." Putin's demand that Ukraine be barred from NATO is known (acknowledged) but is not and never will be recognized as legitimate.
...
Putin's position on Ukraine/NATO is known and able to be taken advantage of. The world economy needs a reset to roll back untenable debt and they can't do anything silly like let inflation take its course or do anything that might disrupt the markets long term; poking the bear to start a war is clearly the only sensible option. Nevermind fuel prices and general cost of living was going to skyrocket anyway because cost of living has been lowballed to keep wages low and profits high for a long time, nasty old Putin did the thing we knew he'd do when we did this thing so it's all his fault. They even got the orange man to endorse Putin signalling he's the bad guy, does it get any more blatant? Maybe I'm too cynical.
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