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Old 2015-01-09, 11:52   #1
davar55
 
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Default what are we talking about when we talk about Capitalism (not quite R.Carver)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ewmayer View Post
Couple good articles from Naked Capitalism - first one dates from the 2012 presidential-electoral season:
o Exclusive: How Obama’s Early Career Success Was Built on Fronting for Chicago Real Estate and Finance
o Something That Changed My Perspective: Karl Polanyi’s The Great Transformation
All students of economics, whether professional or amateur, should have a copy of Polanyi's classic on their bookshelves, next to - or perhaps in place of - Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations, which for all its valuable insights presents a rather tendentiously optimistic view of the same economic & societal transformation.
Note the updated link(s) to Adam Curtis’ The Century of Self in the reader comments.
I couldn't get thru the second article, too many silly typos, unprofessional.

But the author's selections of Polanyi's quotes indicate that Polyani was either Marxist, socialist,
or anti-Capitalist (all basically the same). And while it is true that Capitalism was responsible for
all the freedom and success of the Industrial Revolution (and the hundred years peace),
it is not true that the subsequent hundred years to now were caused by Capitalism's failure.
Capitalism did not fail, it was assaulted by such as Polyani. It will probably recover.
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Old 2015-01-09, 12:45   #2
xilman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davar55 View Post
(and the hundred years peace),
What have you been smoking?
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Old 2015-01-09, 16:34   #3
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Hey, be nice.

I was referring to the period 1815-1914 from the end of the war with Britain
to the beginning of the first world war. From the American perspective, this
was our industrial revolution and the kindling of our prosperity. The only
wars we fought were on our own continent, were necessary to our survival,
and we won. No foreign entanglements until we had to rescue Europe from
itself in 1917-1918. The war period (from 1914-1990) ended in the fall of
communism and a mostly peaceful Europe, another American success.

Now we are engaged in a war on world-wide terrorism. We intend to win
this one too. I personally call this World War III, starting with the two
attacks in New York (1991,2001) and continuing until the last terrorist
organization is defeated.

Peace and industrialization are hallmarks of Capitalism, as we prove.

Last fiddled with by davar55 on 2015-01-09 at 16:38
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Old 2015-01-09, 18:36   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davar55 View Post
Hey, be nice.

I was referring to the period 1815-1914 from the end of the war with Britain
to the beginning of the first world war. From the American perspective, this
was our industrial revolution and the kindling of our prosperity. The only
wars we fought were on our own continent, were necessary to our survival,
and we won. No foreign entanglements until we had to rescue Europe from
itself in 1917-1918. The war period (from 1914-1990) ended in the fall of
communism and a mostly peaceful Europe, another American success.

Now we are engaged in a war on world-wide terrorism. We intend to win
this one too. I personally call this World War III, starting with the two
attacks in New York (1991,2001) and continuing until the last terrorist
organization is defeated.

Peace and industrialization are hallmarks of Capitalism, as we prove.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine–American_War to name one in particular.
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Old 2015-01-09, 20:50   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
Not interested in European historical revisionism (apologies in advance for that comment) !



That action was necessitated by the outcome of the Spanish-American war, ultimately resulted
in Philippine independence and a better way of life for their people, and is to our credit.

Last fiddled with by davar55 on 2015-01-09 at 20:57
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Old 2015-01-09, 22:23   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davar55 View Post
That action was necessitated by the outcome of the Spanish-American war, ultimately resulted
in Philippine independence and a better way of life for their people, and is to our credit.
I'm prepared, purely for the sake of argument, to agree without reservation to everything in that statement.

Nonetheless, it was, from the point of the US, a foreign war not taking place on the American continent(s) with US involvement and, further, took place between 1815 and 1914. In that regard it undoubtedly shows that your earlier statement was untrue.
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Old 2015-01-09, 22:28   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
I'm prepared, purely for the sake of argument, to agree without reservation to everything in that statement.

Nonetheless, it was, from the point of the US, a foreign war not taking place on the American continent(s) with US involvement and, further, took place between 1815 and 1914. In that regard it undoubtedly shows that your earlier statement was untrue.
It was a continuation of the Spanish-American war. Hence no.
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Old 2015-01-10, 07:53   #8
ewmayer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davar55 View Post
And while it is true that Capitalism was responsible for
all the freedom and success of the Industrial Revolution (and the hundred years peace),
"Freedom and success" for whom? The teeming, wretched underclasses in England who had been mass-dispossessed by "innovations" such as the enclosure laws, and whose plight was so eloquently chronicled by the likes of Mr. Dickens, might take issue with your sunny long-after-the-fact assessment, were they alive to do so. I find institutions such as child slavery a curious expression of "freedom and success" - you?

As for your alleged "hundred years peace", again, "peace for whom"? If you remove all the involved parties in the period in question from this long list, roughly what fraction of the world's peoples were at peace for that period?

Quote:
it is not true that the subsequent hundred years to now were caused by Capitalism's failure.
Capitalism did not fail, it was assaulted by such as Polyani. It will probably recover.
Ah, so just to cite a recent example, the "assaults on capitalism" of Polanyi and his ilk were responsible for the late great global financial crisis? And the rampant rise of economic inequality over the past 30-some years? Do tell. Details ... we want details.
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Old 2015-01-10, 12:20   #9
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Freedom and success for Americans and eventually those others who
adopt freedom, democracy, and Capitalism in their socioeconomic systems.

Perhaps a summary of complaints by those claimed to have been harmed
by America's freedom and prosperity would be in order? I doubt it.

The recent crisis was. as usual, not caused by Capitalism but by interference.
Economic inequality by itself is not any kind of problem, as total economic
equality is impossible and undesirable.
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Old 2015-01-10, 12:52   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davar55 View Post
Perhaps a summary of complaints by those claimed to have been harmed
by America's freedom and prosperity would be in order? I doubt it.
I will not even attempt a summary of complaints, nor a summary of people affected, just a tentative start of a list of people that did not benefit from the capitalistic countries actions.
The people of Iran (the USA helped the Shah and when it could not be sustained the religious opposition to the Shah against the more social opposition), the people of Afghanistan (the USA helped the religious opposition to the socialist regime, especially a movement called Al Quaida or something like that), the people of Iraq (which are now enjoying freedom, prosperity and security I suppose ?), perhaps the people of Haiti, St Domingo, the countless people murdered by the factious coups in Chile, Argentina, Brazil, and so on. I should add to this list the American Indians, the list of wars of the 19th century shows that imposing the benefits of freedom, prosperity and security is sometimes a harsh affair.

Even discounting all those wars I suppose you think that the textile workers in Bangladesh, Cambodia, Vietnam, Mexico and so on are also all enjoying the prosperity, freedom and security brought by the capitalist system ?

The current economic system is based on exploitation of resources without regard to the future.All decisions are based on very short term financial consequences only. It brings prosperity to a very few at the cost of the rest of the world and the future.

You should wake up and look around.

Jacob
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Old 2015-01-10, 15:39   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S485122 View Post
I will not even attempt a summary of complaints, nor a summary of people affected, just a tentative start of a list of people that did not benefit from the capitalistic countries actions.
The people of Iran (the USA helped the Shah and when it could not be sustained the religious opposition to the Shah against the more social opposition), the people of Afghanistan (the USA helped the religious opposition to the socialist regime, especially a movement called Al Quaida or something like that), the people of Iraq (which are now enjoying freedom, prosperity and security I suppose ?), perhaps the people of Haiti, St Domingo, the countless people murdered by the factious coups in Chile, Argentina, Brazil, and so on. I should add to this list the American Indians, the list of wars of the 19th century shows that imposing the benefits of freedom, prosperity and security is sometimes a harsh affair.
Even discounting all those wars I suppose you think that the textile workers in Bangladesh, Cambodia, Vietnam, Mexico and so on are also all enjoying the prosperity, freedom and security brought by the capitalist system ?
The current economic system is based on exploitation of resources without regard to the future.All decisions are based on very short term financial consequences only. It brings prosperity to a very few at the cost of the rest of the world and the future.
You should wake up and look around.
"The benefits off freedom, prosperity, and security" are not possible in the absence of a free economic system,
i.e. Capitalism. We didn't cause these ills, we tried and in many cases solved or are solving them. Answering
point by point is pointless. The world is better off for America's actions.
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