White 22

cheesehead · 2014-03-02, 10:00

[URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=368032&postcount=130"]They played 21 ... Bc8.[/URL]

Our deadline for move 22 is Saturday, March 8, 10:47 GMT, about six days from now.

- - -

Well, again they've made a move that our previous consensus had not thought their best ... but maybe we've overlooked some hidden virtue?

21 ... Bc8 does keep their rook's look down the b-file clear. This might indicate their interest in doing something with the b-pawn soon. (Might it be that they want that bishop to bear on d7? Maybe they think the e-pawn will move soon, so that the c8-h3 diagonal will become clear?)

- - -

Let's summarize what we previously explored (not much) for after 21 ... Bc8:

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;367709]They also lose the pawn with 21... Bc8 22. Bd2 h5 [strike]23. Ne3 Bh6 24. Nxc4 Bxd2 25. Nxd2[/strike][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=LaurV;367711]< snip > after h5, 23.Bg5, and end game.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=cheesehead;367587]If 21 ... Bc8 22 Rf2 Nd5 23 Bd2 a5 [strike]24 Ne3[/strike][/QUOTE]Is 24 Bg5 best here, too?

If 22 ... Nd5 23 Ne3 Nxe3 we win a piece with 24 Bxc6+

- -

Our leading candidates for move 22 are, at least:

[B]22 Bd2[/B]

and

[B]22 Rf2[/B]

Any others?

LaurV · 2014-03-02, 14:52

We already analyzed this branch, and I think Bd2 is our best answer. We may also move Bf2, but this is weaker from two points: it does not defend the pawns, and it blocks the rook. The idea behind moving the bishop is to develop the knight, too. They can not do much on the queen's side after Bd2.

WMHalsdorf · 2014-03-02, 16:38

With the bishop on c8 black's movement on the queen's side is totally uncoordinated. Bd2 forces black to decide on opening the queen's side further than what we will be doing with Ne3 and Nxc4 with bxc or playing b3 the better of the 2 move. Rf2 allows black to play Nd5 which allows Nce7.

cheesehead · 2014-03-02, 17:29

Okay, I'm ready to vote:

[b]Bd2[/b] - 5
[b]Rf2[/b] - 1

WMHalsdorf · 2014-03-02, 20:05

[QUOTE=cheesehead;368142]Okay, I'm ready to vote:

[b]Bd2[/b] - 5
[b]Rf2[/b] - 1[/QUOTE]

That's how I would vote. I see no other move that forces black to decide on an action that safely allows Nd5. If they do reply with Nd5 they lose more than a pawn.

cheesehead · 2014-03-04, 10:36

Perhaps their decider for 21 ... Bc8 was that ... Bd7 is a possible followup for their N/c6 problem (and menace our a-pawn if it should become isolated after ... bxc3).

Suppose they've decided that the pawn/c4 is a lost cause and they'd rather deter our Nd6+ followup long enough to neutralize our pawn/e5.

Scenario:
[B]22 Bd2[/B] Bd7 23 Ne3 Nf5 24 Nxc4 h5 (deterring g3-g4 and perhaps [I]inviting[/I] Bg5 for a pawn-and-bishop swap where Black gives weak pawn and bishop for our stronger pawn and bishop) 25 Bg5 f6 26 exf6 Bxf6 27 Bxf6 Rxf6

or just 24 ... f6 25 exf6 (not 25 Bf4 g5) Rxf6

cheesehead · 2014-03-04, 11:58

[QUOTE=cheesehead;368284]
[B]22 Bd2[/B] Bd7 23 Ne3 Nf5 24 Nxc4 < snip>

or just 24 ... f6 25 exf6 (not 25 Bf4 g5) Rxf6[/QUOTE]
if 24 ... f6 25 exf6 (not 25 Bf4 g5 or 25 g4 Nh4) Bxf6 (or Rxf6) 26 Bf4 Rd8 (not Ra8 or Rc8) 27 Nb6

so Black's probably not pushing the f-pawn soon in this line, unless someone sees something else.

WMHalsdorf · 2014-03-04, 20:47

22 Bd2 Bd7 23 Ne3 Nf5 24 Nxc4 h5 25. Bxc6 Bxc6 26. Nxa6

22 Bd2 Bd7 23 Ne3 Nf5 24 Nxc4 f6 25. Bxc6 Bxc6 26. Nxe6

cheesehead · 2014-03-05, 09:06

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;368347]22 Bd2 Bd7 23 Ne3 Nf5 24 Nxc4 h5 25. Bxc6 Bxc6 26. Nxa5

22 Bd2 Bd7 23 Ne3 Nf5 24 Nxc4 f6 25. Bxc6 Bxc6 26. Nxe6[/QUOTE]Yes.

My vision was clouded by dislike for a trade of long-diagonal bishop for a knight that leaves Black's bishop on the long diagonal.

cheesehead · 2014-03-06, 17:01

Tying up a loose end from post #2:
[QUOTE=LaurV;368129]We may also move Bf2, but this is weaker from two points: it does not defend the pawns, and it blocks the rook.[/QUOTE]My suggestion in post #1 was [B]22 Rf2[/B]. I never intended to suggest moving our B/e3 to f2 instead of d2. I think Bf2 would have no good purpose.

Rf2 would maintain pressure on the f-file while also (a) making way for 23 Bf1 to attack the c4-pawn, (b) making way for possible future rook-doubling on the f-file after B/f1 moves or if B isn't placed on f1, (c) preparing a possible future protection of our b2-pawn after our B/d2 moves and/or (d) preparing a possible future transfer of that rook/f2 over to the queen-side after our B/d2 moves.

The main disadvantage I see of Rf2 is that we must not forget about the possibility that Black might get his dark-square bishop to make a pin on e3 if our N/d1 and B/d2 have gone off on queen-side adventures.

- - -

Since we've each expressed our opinion that [B]22 Bd2[/B] is best, is there any reason not to post it today? Anyone need more time for analysis?

LaurV · 2014-03-06, 19:04

The reason is the time. More exactly the lack of it. I was quite busy around, mounting and dismounting computers. I will post the move right now, then go to sleep. Here 2:00 AM.

2014-03-04, 10:36	#6
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²·3·641 Posts	Perhaps their decider for 21 ... Bc8 was that ... Bd7 is a possible followup for their N/c6 problem (and menace our a-pawn if it should become isolated after ... bxc3). Suppose they've decided that the pawn/c4 is a lost cause and they'd rather deter our Nd6+ followup long enough to neutralize our pawn/e5. Scenario: [B]22 Bd2[/B] Bd7 23 Ne3 Nf5 24 Nxc4 h5 (deterring g3-g4 and perhaps [I]inviting[/I] Bg5 for a pawn-and-bishop swap where Black gives weak pawn and bishop for our stronger pawn and bishop) 25 Bg5 f6 26 exf6 Bxf6 27 Bxf6 Rxf6 or just 24 ... f6 25 exf6 (not 25 Bf4 g5) Rxf6 Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2014-03-04 at 11:32

2014-03-04, 11:58	#7
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²×3×641 Posts	[QUOTE=cheesehead;368284] [B]22 Bd2[/B] Bd7 23 Ne3 Nf5 24 Nxc4 < snip> or just 24 ... f6 25 exf6 (not 25 Bf4 g5) Rxf6[/QUOTE] if 24 ... f6 25 exf6 (not 25 Bf4 g5 or 25 g4 Nh4) Bxf6 (or Rxf6) 26 Bf4 Rd8 (not Ra8 or Rc8) 27 Nb6 so Black's probably not pushing the f-pawn soon in this line, unless someone sees something else. Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2014-03-04 at 12:13

2014-03-05, 09:06	#9
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²·3·641 Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;368347]22 Bd2 Bd7 23 Ne3 Nf5 24 Nxc4 h5 25. Bxc6 Bxc6 26. Nxa5 22 Bd2 Bd7 23 Ne3 Nf5 24 Nxc4 f6 25. Bxc6 Bxc6 26. Nxe6[/QUOTE]Yes. My vision was clouded by dislike for a trade of long-diagonal bishop for a knight that leaves Black's bishop on the long diagonal. Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2014-03-05 at 09:15

2014-03-06, 17:01	#10
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²×3×641 Posts	Tying up a loose end from post #2: [QUOTE=LaurV;368129]We may also move Bf2, but this is weaker from two points: it does not defend the pawns, and it blocks the rook.[/QUOTE]My suggestion in post #1 was [B]22 Rf2[/B]. I never intended to suggest moving our B/e3 to f2 instead of d2. I think Bf2 would have no good purpose. Rf2 would maintain pressure on the f-file while also (a) making way for 23 Bf1 to attack the c4-pawn, (b) making way for possible future rook-doubling on the f-file after B/f1 moves or if B isn't placed on f1, (c) preparing a possible future protection of our b2-pawn after our B/d2 moves and/or (d) preparing a possible future transfer of that rook/f2 over to the queen-side after our B/d2 moves. The main disadvantage I see of Rf2 is that we must not forget about the possibility that Black might get his dark-square bishop to make a pin on e3 if our N/d1 and B/d2 have gone off on queen-side adventures. - - - Since we've each expressed our opinion that [B]22 Bd2[/B] is best, is there any reason not to post it today? Anyone need more time for analysis? Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2014-03-06 at 17:37

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2014-03-02, 10:00	#1
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²·3·641 Posts	White 22 [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=368032&postcount=130"]They played 21 ... Bc8.[/URL] Our deadline for move 22 is Saturday, March 8, 10:47 GMT, about six days from now. - - - Well, again they've made a move that our previous consensus had not thought their best ... but maybe we've overlooked some hidden virtue? 21 ... Bc8 does keep their rook's look down the b-file clear. This might indicate their interest in doing something with the b-pawn soon. (Might it be that they want that bishop to bear on d7? Maybe they think the e-pawn will move soon, so that the c8-h3 diagonal will become clear?) - - - Let's summarize what we previously explored (not much) for after 21 ... Bc8: [QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;367709]They also lose the pawn with 21... Bc8 22. Bd2 h5 [strike]23. Ne3 Bh6 24. Nxc4 Bxd2 25. Nxd2[/strike][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=LaurV;367711]< snip > after h5, 23.Bg5, and end game.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=cheesehead;367587]If 21 ... Bc8 22 Rf2 Nd5 23 Bd2 a5 [strike]24 Ne3[/strike][/QUOTE]Is 24 Bg5 best here, too? If 22 ... Nd5 23 Ne3 Nxe3 we win a piece with 24 Bxc6+ - - Our leading candidates for move 22 are, at least: [B]22 Bd2[/B] and [B]22 Rf2[/B] Any others? Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2014-03-02 at 10:43

2014-03-02, 14:52	#2
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 10006₁₀ Posts	We already analyzed this branch, and I think Bd2 is our best answer. We may also move Bf2, but this is weaker from two points: it does not defend the pawns, and it blocks the rook. The idea behind moving the bishop is to develop the knight, too. They can not do much on the queen's side after Bd2.

2014-03-02, 16:38	#3
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³·19 Posts	With the bishop on c8 black's movement on the queen's side is totally uncoordinated. Bd2 forces black to decide on opening the queen's side further than what we will be doing with Ne3 and Nxc4 with bxc or playing b3 the better of the 2 move. Rf2 allows black to play Nd5 which allows Nce7.

2014-03-02, 17:29	#4
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²×3×641 Posts	Okay, I'm ready to vote: [b]Bd2[/b] - 5 [b]Rf2[/b] - 1

2014-03-02, 20:05	#5
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³·19 Posts	[QUOTE=cheesehead;368142]Okay, I'm ready to vote: [b]Bd2[/b] - 5 [b]Rf2[/b] - 1[/QUOTE] That's how I would vote. I see no other move that forces black to decide on an action that safely allows Nd5. If they do reply with Nd5 they lose more than a pawn.

2014-03-04, 20:47	#8
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 1000000001₂ Posts	22 Bd2 Bd7 23 Ne3 Nf5 24 Nxc4 h5 25. Bxc6 Bxc6 26. Nxa6 22 Bd2 Bd7 23 Ne3 Nf5 24 Nxc4 f6 25. Bxc6 Bxc6 26. Nxe6

2014-03-06, 19:04	#11
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 23426₈ Posts	The reason is the time. More exactly the lack of it. I was quite busy around, mounting and dismounting computers. I will post the move right now, then go to sleep. Here 2:00 AM.