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Old 2006-07-30, 16:40   #1
mfgoode
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Question Bible-fact, fiction,or mythology?


Yes, is the bible based on solid facts of a certain kind along with many others?
Is it to be taken literally, or allegorically?

To kick off- the Bible says in its account of its Creation by God that it took 6 days to complete or start the process and on the 7th He declared a rest.
Does it give elsewhere the time scale used? Or should we take it literally as the 6 days we know off now?

Well in the New Testament it says " A day to the Lord is a thousand years.
A thousand years to Him is a day" That would make it 6000 years for Creation. And what then is a year to Him?

If the genealogy from Adam to Christ, very accurately and factually given, it does amount to 6000 years. And then I ask what is a year to Him?

Lets have your comments on this and many other things it speaks off.

Mally
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Old 2006-07-31, 00:32   #2
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To me a book is just a book. Regarding the bible in particular, it is just a work of people. There is no way to either prove or disprove anything written there.
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Old 2006-07-31, 03:19   #3
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Lightbulb Just a book


Well retina a book is just a book- well said.
So is Euclid's Elements. Could you have done without its contents or could the World have done so?

Even if Euclid had not written it someone else would have done so, as it expresses Natures law's. Now there are many such books written on different topics and the World has benefited by them.

Take for instance medicine. The ancients knew a lot of the human body, even the brain, but it was only when 'Grays Anatomy' came along and explained the blood circulation did the medical world sit up and take notice.
Today it has become the 'Bible' of medical practitioners and so are the other works on evolution, literature, etc. you name it,- they call it the Bible of the discipline. Please think about it.

Similarly the need of a book arose to guide human behavior and right living
and so came along the Bible.
Mally
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Old 2006-07-31, 09:18   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfgoode

Take for instance medicine. The ancients knew a lot of the human body, even the brain, but it was only when 'Grays Anatomy' came along and explained the blood circulation did the medical world sit up and take notice.
Today it has become the 'Bible' of medical practitioners and so are the other works on evolution, literature, etc. you name it,- they call it the Bible of the discipline. Please think about it.

Similarly the need of a book arose to guide human behavior and right living
and so came along the Bible.
Mally
That's quite a statement. The book now generally referred to as Gray's Anatomy is an anatomy text first published in Britain c.1858. William Harvey is accepted to be the author of the first complete description of the circulation of the blood. His work entitled On the Motion of the Heart & Blood in Animals was published in 1628.

Perhaps you would care to explain?
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Old 2006-07-31, 11:26   #5
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Quote:
So is Euclid's Elements. Could you have done without its contents or could the World have done so?
I thought that was based upon provable facts/precedures. I strongly doubt that anyone can go back in time and either prove or disprove what is written in texts like the bible. Although I would be delighted if someone did actually go backwards and set to rest all the debates.
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Old 2006-07-31, 16:29   #6
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One needs to be clear what one means by "Bible" - there is no THE Bible, there is the original Hebrew biblical canon, much, but not all of which forms the Christian Old Testament, numerous translations (and yes, mistranslations) into Greek, Latin and other languages, the New Testament (which also exists in a variety of translations), the Apocrypha, et cetera.

On the subject of mistranslations, ran into a nice quote about perhaps the most (in)famous one of all in my weekend reading:

Quote:
"We tend to regard erratic copying as a bad thing, and in the case of human documents it is hard to think of cases where errors are improvements. I suppose the scholars of the Septuagint could at least be said to have started something big when they mistranslated the Hebrew word for "young woman" into the Greek word for "virgin," coming up with the prophesy: 'Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son...'"

---- Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene, 1976.
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Old 2006-08-01, 15:57   #7
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Lightbulb Bible-fact,fiction,or mythology


I stand corrected 99.94. It shows that I am fallible
However this reinforces the question:” how many reach immortal fame and live on thru the centuries? Not many I would say
Personally, the names James Watt and George Stephenson should be on my lips as I drove those ‘iron horses’ when My dad, was a mail driver, and I a small boy, being of a privileged class. Yet they escaped my memory and I had to surf the net to find out their first names which are sentimental to me

Yes Ernst we need to define what exactly we mean by ‘bible’ as this is a word loosely used
.My yearly updated Hand book of Mechanical Engineers was called the BIBLE of Mech Engg. And there are many such names for different subjects.
From this term I gather that whatever the discipline attaching ‘Bible’ to it means, let’s say, the Be All and End All of it.
This I presume is Retina’s point of proving things that took place in the past has been at least partially answered

While I agree that there are several translations and also mis- translations of it I think we are jumping the gun a bit.
Why there are still scrolls still buried in the caves of Qumran and yet to be discovered
But instead of getting bogged down and engaging in endless arguments let me get straight to the point.

The Holy Bible is from beginning to end the Life of a God Man called
Jesus Christ. He is the ONLY man whose birth was fore told in the very 1st chapter.
Later the seers named His birthplace and pinpointed it to an accuracy rivalling our satellites.
His place of birth was marked by a heavenly Star which guided wise men from far off lands to pay him homage with gifts fit for Kings.
And then His Death was prophesied ages before his time and the greatest feat was his
Resurrection from the Dead as he foretold in three days of lying dead in the tomb
No mortal Living or Dead can ever claim the same though many have tried to duplicate his unexplainable works of healing and forgiving.
To explain more of this thread is not possible at this time.
I will therefore quote the essay “A solitary Life”


"One Solitary Life"
Here is a man who was born in an obscure village, the child of a peasant woman. He grew up in another village. He worked in a carpenter shop until He was thirty. Then for three years He was an itinerant preacher.
He never owned a home. He never wrote a book. He never held an office. He never had a family. He never went to college. He never put His foot inside a big city. He never traveled two hundred miles from the place He was born. He never did one of the things that usually accompany greatness. He had no credentials but Himself...

While still a young man, the tide of popular opinion turned against him. His friends ran away. One of them denied Him. He was turned over to His enemies. He went through the mockery of a trial. He was nailed upon a cross between two thieves. While He was dying His executioners gambled for the only piece of property He had on earth – His coat. When He was dead, He was laid in a borrowed grave through the pity of a friend.

Nineteen long centuries have come and gone, and today He is a centerpiece of the human race and leader of the column of progress.

I am far within the mark when I say that all the armies that ever marched, all the navies that were ever built; all the parliaments that ever sat and all the kings that ever reigned, put together, have not affected the life of man upon this earth as powerfully as has that one solitary life.


This essay was adapted from a sermon by Dr James Allan Francis in “The Real Jesus "

Mally
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Old 2006-08-01, 22:55   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfgoode
Is the bible based on solid facts.
Answer: no.
Quote:
Is it to be taken literally, or allegorically?
Answer: allegorically.

Just think about the dozens or hundreds of millions of men, women and children who died in the past because their God was not exactly identical to the God of their neighbours.

Tora, Bible, Coran (and many others) are just nice stories (written by human beings) aimed to explain the world and to help people to live together in peace. The problem is that these religions do not authorize you to believe in another way ...

Forget the stories, forget the words. Just remind the following ideas:
a) We all will die one day ; how must we spend this very short time so that we do not hurt anyone else and so that our children will have still a world they want to live in ?
b) We are lost alone on a small planet. We (human beings, animals, plants, ...) are the result of the chance (size of the Sun, number of planets, comets providing water and some seeds, the so important moon, ...) due to the 10 billions of years before and due to the size of the World. Other thinking beings live in the World, but we'll never meet them.

If you need a religion, just build a new one that contains all we know today about our World and that -above all- provides rules for men to live together in peace.

I'm tired to hear people still believing that all sentences of their holy book are true.

Now, if we do not stop destroying our small planet, future will be sad for human beings ... I just cannot imagine the Earth without Elephants, Tigers, Whales, Frogs, ... and Monkeys. Which animal will replace our civilization ? the rats ? When our closest parents (the bonobos) will disappear, after so many other cousins ? Will it be worth to live on Earth once every piece of land has been destroyed by us ? How human beings of the future will explain to their children that we have eliminated so many wonderful creatures ? How could we live in a world without wild birds crossing the sky ? How will it be possible to live without shrews ?

Bible, Coran, Tora (and many other books of that kind) are just outdated. Forget them.
We are now facing so different and more important problems.

T.
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Old 2006-08-02, 00:05   #9
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Well said, Tony! I could not agree more.

Religions, creation mythologies and various other kinds of and wishful thinkful are not problematic in and of themselves - I have no problem if you choose to believe something other than I do, especially on matters where there is no objective evidence either way. But the fact is, some of the more widespread of these collective delusions have resulted in the slaughter of millions and untold suffering, either because the victims didn't believe "the right thing" or were led by their particular belief system to engage in behavior that endangered their own survival or that of others. (Look at the religious/cultural conspiracy theories about Polio vaccine in various parts of the world, by way of a current example.) And that is something I *do* have a problem with.

On the environmental side, the biblical admonishment to "go forth and multiply" may have been reasonable advice a few millennia and billions of people ago (although even then it seems to have come at the expense of more than a few tribes of "unbelievers"), but now it's absolutely killing the planet. As I've said before, if humanity can't find a way to get its collective house in order (especially with respect to rampant overpopulation), nature's gonna do it for us someday. And the thing about nature, it doesn't give a damn what you believe in or what silly little book you wave at it.
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Old 2006-08-04, 16:54   #10
mfgoode
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Question A book is a book

Quote:
Originally Posted by retina
To me a book is just a book. Regarding the bible in particular, it is just a work of people. There is no way to either prove or disprove anything written there.

Well Retina how much exactly have you read through it (The Bible) to pass judgement on it?
If you have just read say 5 of the 13 books of Euclid could you say that he neither proves or disproves any theorems by not believing his axioms ? which he first postulates?
The same question I put to Tony and Ernst?
Be honest with your selves and please let me know if you have even read the whole of the New Testament leave alone the OT. or you are basing your opinions on hearsay from others?
Mally
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Old 2006-08-04, 21:29   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewmayer
Well said, Tony! I could not agree more.
Sure my poor english has made my explanations unclear in some parts. I did my best.
Quote:
If humanity can't find a way to get its collective house in order, nature's gonna do it for us someday.
2000 years after, Men have understood so many things ! And so many things are still to discover and understand.
Now that we have started to understand how complex and fragile our Earth is, we do understand that things will never be as fine as they are these days. Nature will react and revolt.

I have 2 questions:
1) Will Men be able to survive ?
2) If not, will another thinking being grow and take our place and create a peacefull civilization ? If we kill Elephants, Bonobos, ... sure the rats will replace us.

Mally, if you like to read books, read this one: Collapse.
It explains how, very suddenly, civilizations can collapse and disappear, due to environmental pressure.
When will end our civilization ?
Which one will replace it ? If any.

Tony
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