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Old 2015-09-16, 04:15   #23
Madpoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madpoo View Post
For the purposes of my reply, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your software is on the level.
And now I'll add the comment that was bugging me... "Billy Rubin"? I guess that's an alias (hey, my name isn't really "Madpoo"), but installing software written by fictional serial killers seems off-putting. But then, why take advice from someone named "Madpoo"... doesn't make sense either.
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Old 2015-09-16, 04:25   #24
LaurV
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"Have you..(fill in whatever). No." (quoted in reply to Tha)
No. And I won't. Why waste my time and my resources?

re: "skeptical": ooo... grammar/spelling nazi too... sorry, we are not native speakers...

re: "factored a thousand numbers" Are you serious? I mean, are you fucking serious? There are billions of them factored already. All the work you pretend you did, I can do in few hours (3-4 hours in fact) of running mfaktc in a SINGLE (not FIVE!) gtx580 gpu. Channeling my internal RDS: read a bit about the subject, before boasting here crap.

vitriol? well, you get what you pay for...

the rest is tl;dr,

edit: re finding factors: "CEMPLLA is limited to 64-bit modulus arithmetic" - What??? Totally crank and clueless (sorry RDS, I know this is your phrase ) You mean you will run a LL test that can take ~5 years (for the billion digit numbers) when you could eliminate the exponent in just hours - sorry - minutes, it take minutes to test 1B exponent to 65 bits in a normal GPU and it can take seconds in a good one.

Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2015-09-16 at 04:36
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Old 2015-09-16, 04:42   #25
Prime95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CEMPLLA Author View Post
//-----[ Justifiable Outrage begins here ]-----//
Yes, forum members can be quite harsh. They have seen many false claims of great breakthroughs. IMO, that is not a justification for incivility.

Quote:
Here, you hit the nail on the head when you mention the EFF monetary awards - this is why CEMPLLA exists at all, and I make no apologies for it, nor do I believe that I should.
That is fine, I have no problem with that.

Quote:
I am a little concerned about your phraseology ... "Promise to share your results with GIMPS". For what it's worth, they are free to download and install the CEMPLLA System themselves, which shares all results with all participants as they occur. However, your use of the word "promise" seems a bit odd to me in this context, especially in light of the fact that it would seem to further the idea that GIMPS has some kind of unspoken "lock" on the EFF monetary awards,
The GIMPS database, which you can query from the web pages, has become a repository for all known information regarding Mersenne factors, LL tests run, unsuccessful trial factoring and P-1 factoring runs. Sharing such information will not hamper your quest, nor will it give GIMPS any claim on the EFF award should you find a big prime.

Quote:
CEMPLLA is limited to 64-bit modulus arithmetic...
This is an example of where you can learn a lot from members here. If I'm not mistaken, all the 100M digit candidates are already factored to at least 2^64.

You'll also learn that running an LL test on an exponent without trial factoring to at least 2^77 is very inefficient. There are existing programs that are absurdly fast at trial factoring.

Quote:
1) "Your program must print out".. "the final 64-bits of the last LL iteration". I'm not sure I understand this. I do not remember reading that in the EFF rules, but more to the point, the final 64-bits of the final iteration would have to be, by definition, zero,
This has nothing to do with EFF. Yes, the final 64-bits are zero for a prime. This has to do with the many composites you'll find first. By remembering the exponent and final 64-bits (called the residue) we can at a later date run the LL test again to verify 64-bit residue. This is valuable for two reasons. 1) GPUs and CPUs are error-prone. The matching second LL test makes sure that no Mersenne primes are missed. 2) This is how you can verify the accuracy of your program. Simply compare your 64-bit residue with the residue from another program such as prime95, cudaLucas, or mLucas.

There are other uses for residues. For example, prime95 can print out the residue after say 1000 LL iterations. If your program can do the same, then we simply run 1000 iterations using both programs on a variety of big exponents. Your users will be reassured once they see this happen. No one can accuse you of bitcoin mining because they can see proof that your program works as advertised. When dealing with the general public, the higher your provable credibility the more GPUs you will attract to your cause.


Quote:
It does retain the last four iterations that were saved either explicitly or implicitly by the running CEMPLLA program, which could be any number of iterations below the last one.
Good. GIMPS did not add that feature for many years. It makes validating a claim very quick as it is virtually impossible to fake these files.

Quote:
but also because the existing software for these techniques are full of comments like, "should this be here?", or "I'm not sure this is necessary.", which introduces a whole new level of ambiguity into the EFF award process that I knew I couldn't afford to abide.
Having been through the award process twice, this is not what the EFF cares about. They mainly want the discovery independently verified and published in reputable mathematics journal.

Quote:
Then I went on to develop my own DLP-based (Data-Level Parallelism) huge number multiplication algorithm, (which will be released to the GP when the source code is released), then by painful trial and error, figured out a way to implement same as a structured distributed computing effort...
I hope you have something there. No need to publish or describe the algorithm here. I confess to being curious but that is my problem, not yours.

I do think you need to prove your program is correct using the residues method above. You also need to show your program is as fast or faster than other existing programs. This is easy via benchmarking it against cudaLucas. It's the only way to get the quantity of users you will need. BTW, have you estimated how long it will take to find a 100 million digit Mersenne prime if you had say 1000 clients?


Quote:
"I can guarantee that version 1.0 of your program pales in comparison to what it can be" might seem to me, at least at this point, having worked hard on this project for four whole years, to be little bit on the uninformed side of things.
Even if the LL code cannot be improved, I'd wager you could easily double your throughput (or more) by using more efficient trial factoring methods, factoring to the optimal level, and P-1 factoring.

Quote:
As for sharing my algorithms with this forum, or anyone else for that matter, the danger there is that someone (GIMPS even?) will immediately use them to win the EFF award before I can even get CEMPLLA off the ground, based solely on my own hard work - and not theirs. If that sounds selfish, then so be it ... And, oh yeah, making a bit of money doing it as well..

To be fair to myself though, having worked on CEMPLLA for a little over four years now, even if I win both remaining EFF awards, my average pay for all that time would amount to about $10 an hour, if that.. Not exactly great..

BTW, are you the author of the software commonly referred to by your namesake?
Yes, I'm the author. If you pocket the entire award for yourself, I expect you'll be in the red by the time you find a prime. This is a labor of love.
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Old 2015-09-16, 07:17   #26
Batalov
 
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It is a shame that no one mirrored / cached the infamous Mersenneathome project.
There is still a Facebook page. Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.

Re: "It took me four years to write it (...so it simply must be a great product)"
"As I said, this problem will take some of you a few months to solve; for others, the rest of your natural lives." -- from the film A Beautiful Mind.
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Old 2015-09-16, 07:32   #27
tha
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CEMPLLA Author View Post

I don't think I've ever had to face so much vitriol from so many for doing something so benign as attempting to distribute my own well-intentioned software. So a couple of questions are in order here:


To "tha": Everything I said in my original post is true. Absolutely none of it is "social engineering" "hardly above the level of 419 scams". I mean, really, get a grip. Did you download the program? No. Did you check it with a virus-checker? No.

BTW, "sceptical" (sic) is spelled with a "k". Of course, you'd know that if you spent more than five minutes attempting to hang me out to dry for your own self-aggrandizement.
Your attempt to introduce your program here does show that you did a little effort to familiarize with the field of Mersenne primes, but not nearly enough to be taken serious.

As far as the virus concern mentioned you very well understood that what was meant is that your program might be a program that does behave otherwise than intended by the owner of the machine. Whether or not the program has other viruses is a secondary concern.

Where I wrote that I was sceptical, that was meant as Oxford polite. I actually think you advertise yourself as a scam.
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Old 2015-09-16, 07:40   #28
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Felicitations,

Well, thanks for considerably dialing down your "baloney detector". I can always respect a man with a working ability to reconsider his opinion(s)..

Anyway, wow - I'm a little overwhelmed at how prolific you all are in this forum. I barely have time to take a breath before I'm faced with a virtual plethora of unread responses, all with very crucial and decidedly informed comments about so many things..

On top of which, for some reason I have yet to discern, whenever I start a response, I end up seeing even more replies that, as far as I can tell, just weren't there before I started the reply. So when I opened this reply up, I saw Prime95's response for the first time, which I could swear didn't exist before I started - weird. But it's probably just me.

Anyway, it's almost 1 a.m. right now, so I'm going to try to keep this short because, no offense intended, I want to put most of what I have to say in a response to Prime95's latest post, because he explained everything so well. Otherwise, I'll just end up sounding redundant.

So the bottom line is that I really like this whole idea of implementing a "64-bit residue" into CEMPLLA, and I want to get the specifics right, so I can implement it ASAP. It occurs to me that a 64-bit CRC of the entire remainder would be better suited to the purpose of correlating numeric results, but I guess that might introduce another layer of possible error, or perhaps go against traditional ways of doing things, or both - whatever. I'm fine with whatever is conventional.

So the "64-bit residue" is just the least significant quad word of the last iteration's remainder, prefixed by the 32-bit Mersenne Prime exponent? Is it usually presented in hexadecimal format, and/or stored as a 96-bit number?

Right now, the CEMPLLA program displays "proof" of its algorithmic accuracy by accepting any prime exponent from the participant(as long as it's smaller than that which would express a one hundred million decimal digit Mersenne Prime, or above), then proceeds to run the LLT on it, from start to finish, displaying each iteration as it occurs (which can be turned on or off at any time by a checkbox), until it completes. Then it announces whether the given Mersenne candidate is prime, or not.

I'm thinking that, for the reasons you and Prime95 have outlined (quite well, I might add), a far better approach might be to display, at the end of the LLT, not just the result of the LLT, but the "64-bit residue" (unless it's a prime), and as much information as would satisfy even the most ardent of skeptics. Perhaps a whole array of residues. So if I added a "Details" button to the LLT result display, what would some interested party be interested in seeing if and when they pressed that button?

Of course, that same additional information would also have to be stored when the LLT has been completed for every candidate taken from the CEMPLLA database, for proper peer review.

Anyway, lot's more to say, and no time left in the day to say it. I need to get some things done (unrelated to any of this), so I may be gone for a bit.. Sure hope I don't get a zillion responses in the interim :)

Also, apologies to George for calling his software "twenty years old" in another forum - I was completely ignorant of the fact that it was still being maintained at all - my bad. Anyone who's written software that people are still using twenty years after its creation deserves better than that kind of offhand (and decidedly uninformed) remark. So, sorry about that George.

Quote:
But yes, Prime95 = George Woltman. And I, for the record, am the doofus who got busted for running Prime95 on a bunch of computers without permission. LOL
Good to know, but no, I'd never heard of that particular infamy.. Sounds so.. Thomas Anderson..
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Old 2015-09-16, 07:45   #29
Batalov
 
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Since the Author does anything but post the ReadMe.txt file, here it is.
[sarcasm]Social engineering? Where? Nah, there is none there [/sarcasm]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadMe.txt
For what it's worth, I've had this "WDDM TDR" "feature" (thingy) turned *off* on my system for about two years now, and it's *never* caused any problems - with anything - ever..
That is really convincing! I am sold!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadMe.txt
Again, to make a long story short, if you see this particular dialog box pop up when you invoke the CEMPLLA System Install program, you must answer in the affirmative, or the CEMPLLA System Install program will fail to install the software properly.

Of course, if you're logged on to Windows with administrator privileges, you can just turn this particular "feature" off, and you won't get the pop-up dialog box. Then again, if you turn it off, then log on to Windows *without* administrator privileges, *all* Install programs will fail without warning (great "feature" huh?)..

* Bored Yet?
You bet!
Attached Files
File Type: txt ReadMe.txt (10.1 KB, 185 views)
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Old 2015-09-16, 08:42   #30
LaurV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by readme (thanks Serge)
However, you should always check any and all programs that you run on your machine with a reliable virus checking program, such as Comodo Anti-Virus,
Bwhaaa, haaa... This is the best ("specialized", or "closed") joke today. Why this is funny, buddy, you need an update, your program was not in the list of 500 best antivirus programs for the last 10 years or so... You should believe me, I am in domain, making a living of it, but if you don't, then try virus bulletin. Fail on all chapters for ever... hahaha... Stopped reading the readme.

P.S. yes, your program should display the last 16 hex digits of the residue, in the same format as on gimps web site, or here. This is public knowledge and it is not requesting any money from you, in case you get the EFF award

Congrats to George for patience. You should listen to him, he knows and he walked the talk.

edit: continued to read the readme, could not refrain, sorry. No mention about the EFF money? Not only spelling nazi, but burglar too, using my resources and increasing my electricity bills to make money for himself... And to add something constructive too: you should read the mfaktc thread, "da capo al fine". I know there are few hundred pages, but only the first 5-10 are interesting to you, as you can see how Oliver introduced gpu factoring, how he proved the concept, how he asked for details about modular inversion and all that stuff, from people with more experience in math than himself, willing to learn and apply, see how the program "formed" itself in the very useful tool it is today. And see how people welcomed him, and encouraged him, and some even helped him (see the GPU sieving part). Later, parts of his code were used to develop other tools (like mmff program, for example). We are here a much warmer community than you can imagine, but we burned our mouth with many dishes in the past, so now we are blowing in the yogurt too... (don't tell me is spelled yoghurt! ). If Oliver (TheJudger) would have come here with this air of "I know everything, you are all fuckers and you should give me your resources and pay higher electricity bills so I can get the EFF money for myself", then he would have got the same kick in the butt as you got... Sorry...

Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2015-09-16 at 09:01
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Old 2015-09-16, 12:30   #31
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@CEMPLLA Author I'm guessing you've thought about these:

1) can any mersenne numbers with co-prime exponents share a factor ?
2) can you reduce the number of factor candidates for any particular edit:(prime) exponent p ?

Last fiddled with by science_man_88 on 2015-09-16 at 12:38
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Old 2015-09-16, 14:02   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batalov View Post
Since the Author does anything but post the ReadMe.txt file, here it is.
[sarcasm]Social engineering? Where? Nah, there is none there [/sarcasm]

That is really convincing! I am sold!


You bet!
Even funnier is this

" The CEMPLLA System Install program will *DISABLE* this "feature" of Windows when installing the CEMPLLA software, if one or more NVidia GPUs are detected on the machine.

That's because this particular "feature" of Windows is completely incompatible with CEMPLLA, and in fact, any application that uses a GPU (Graphics Pricessing Unit) for anything other than graphics."

I have a 2nd gpu in this computer running nothing except mfaktc and windows has never killed it even it though it never does graphics.

This guy is clearly a scammer and should be banned, unless of course he/she is prepared to do the following

1. Explain why it must be run as administator
2. Explain why virus checking must be disabled
3. Explain why wddm whatever must be turned off.

By explain that means DETAILED TECHNICAL reasons, not airy-fairy crap.

4. What web sites the software will try to connect to, where it is hosted and who the registrant is
5. SOURCE code - because at the moment you simply come across as trying to get us to install your bitcoin mining software.

and sceptic is how it is spelled, check the OED.

Last fiddled with by Gordon on 2015-09-16 at 14:05 Reason: ref to dictionary
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Old 2015-09-16, 14:13   #33
retina
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Well, for me, regardless of any anything else, any random program that feels it has the right to change my Windows system settings is never going to get any clock cycles. My system is set the way I want it for my own reasons. Others don't get to change things around at their whim.

Also any program that communicates with the external ports won't get past my firewall either unless it is made clear to me which URIs it it intending to speak to, why it needs to speak and what it is saying.
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