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Old 2009-01-09, 21:36   #1
garo
 
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Default Slaughter in Gaza

[Moderator's Note: I had originally titled the thread Slaughter in Gaza, but after a suggestion from cheesehead the title was changed and the thread merged with Gaza Situation thread started by tha. Upon reflection I have decided to undo this.]

Ok perhaps the thread title is biased and provocative but there is no other way I can describe the killing of over 800 people, at least half of whom are civilians and a quarter children by a ruthless modern army. Even the UN has said that Israeli actions may constitute war crimes. The UN is not a body that makes such accusations wildly. But the prima facie evidence is there to support this claim.

Now I understand that you folks on the other side of the pond have your news from the Middle East filtered so take a look at the Guardian. Now some of you may find the image I attach here from the Guardian story linked below disturbing but as a father of two young daughters I find it carries a strong resonance.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...acuees-zeitoun
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Last fiddled with by garo on 2009-01-12 at 23:14 Reason: Thread title reverted.
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Old 2009-01-09, 22:27   #2
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It is unfortunate that so many innocent people have died as part of this conflict. I know that Israel has been doing a lot to avoid the killing of them, but obviously not enough.

One the other hand, how many members of Hamas hide behind children while shooting their guns and missiles?
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Old 2009-01-09, 22:34   #3
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How do you know that Israel has been doing a lot to avoid killing civilians? Do you have any proof of that? There seems to be plenty of evidence to the contrary. They herded a hundred civilians in a house and then shelled the house. Lots of other examples if you care to look for them.

Similarly, do you have any evidence that Hamas members hide behind children while shooting their guns and missiles? Even if we took for granted that Hamas members were hiding behind children does that absolve Israel of the responsibility not to kill the children? But show me the proof for this oft-repeated canard that Hamas hides behind children. If anything, there is a very well-documented Israeli practice in which they use Palestinian civilians as human shields while conducting house-to-house searches in teh West Bank and Gaza. You will find lots of information about this practice in Israeli newspapers. The Israelis don't seem to think there is anything wrong with it so they don't bother to try and hide it.

Last fiddled with by garo on 2009-01-09 at 22:37
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Old 2009-01-09, 23:06   #4
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To my knowledge (I have heard this multiple time from multiple sources), Israel routinely makes phone calls to the areas that they are going to bomb. They tell people to leave the area. The time window is ~10 minutes ahead, which is enough to leave a building and move a couple blocks away.

Hamas has also blocked aid shipments that Israel has tried to ship in.
Hamas and Egypt have gotten in a pissing match. Norwegean doctors were let through, but not the Egyptian ones.
The source of the unguided rockets are often next to apartment buildings, schools, etc.
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Old 2009-01-09, 23:48   #5
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I heard multiple times from multiple sources that there were WMDs in Iraq. How did that turn out eh? Hearsay is not evidence.

Suppose Al Qaeda had called and warned the people in the twin towers that they were going to be bombed ten minutes in advance. Would that have made the bombing okay?

So Hamas is blocking shipments that Israel is trying to send in? Did you get that one on Fox News? What about the two year long blockade that has Israel imposed. What about the students who got Fulbrights to study in the US, got US visas and then the Israelis wouldn't let them leave? I don't buy fo a second that Israel would try to send shipments out of the goodness of their hearts and Hamas would block it. I mean Israel bombed the power station in Gaza on day one of their operation. I am sure that had a military use. Ah yes, they must have been storing rockets there.

Please try to come up with some concrete evidence to back your claims folks. Us media coverage of this war seems about as credible and as impartial as the WMDs in Iraq. But then perhaps they will eventually be found.
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Old 2009-01-09, 23:53   #6
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The whole thing is a mess. But I doubt that that your country or mine would do any less if missiles were raining down on our major cities for months and years. You have to remember that three years ago Israel completely retreated from Gaza, resettling 8000 of its own people, etc. Since then Hamas has just turned it into a firing range from which to attack Israel.

How long after the missiles started hitting London from a territory neighboring the UK do you think your PM would wait before ordering an overwhelming response?
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Old 2009-01-10, 00:37   #7
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Keep in mind that a cease-fire had been in effect since June. The fact that Israel was the first to break the cease-fire in November has been all but ignored in the U.S. media.
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Old 2009-01-10, 01:17   #8
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Not really true. But perhaps we see it in a different perspective. In November, Israel killed approximately 10 Hamas gunmen, in spite of the ceasefire, to eliminate what they considered in imminent threat (though I've seen no details on what this means.)

Hamas responded disproportionately by repeatedly bombing at least two major cities. Israel responded disproportionately to that by sending in its military into Gaza. I don't see obvious white hats and black hats in all of this. Both sides have been agressive and militaristic.

But it you take a step back from the immediate details, a different picture takes shape. Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians (and, effectively Hamas) three years ago and only wants to be left alone. Hamas refuses to accept the existence of Israel and has sworn to kill every last Israeli and to wipe every city to the ground. Not so much symmetry there.
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Old 2009-01-10, 01:29   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philmoore View Post
Keep in mind that a cease-fire had been in effect since June. The fact that Israel was the first to break the cease-fire in November has been all but ignored in the U.S. media.
Per wikipedia:

July 7, 2008
A mortar shell is fired at Israel from Gaza on Monday and lands near the Karni crossing.
July 8, 2008
After two mortar attacks from Gaza at the Sufa crossing
July 10, 2008
Two Qassam rockets were fired at Israel.
In July several more were fired, but failed to reach Israel.

August 1-31st
In the month of August 7 rockets and 12 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel.
September 1-30th
3 rockets and 2 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel.

The Israel Security Agency reports a sharp increase in the number of high trajectory weapon attacks, including towards Ashkelon. This was preceded by an ISA-IDF operation on the evening between November 4th and 5th. Between October 29th and November 6th 48 rockets and 21 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel.

It seems that Israel was showing restraint during Jul-Oct. The early Nov operations were limited. This surrounded the operations regarding the tunnel from Gaza into Israel. The attacks from Gaza increased after this.

Regarding the warnings:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24855309-2,00.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052260.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ans-middleeast
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...ews&id=6581979 (2/3rds down the page)
From Germany: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/ne...bombs__Extra__
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Old 2009-01-10, 08:47   #10
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sichase: None of that gives Israel the right to murder hundreds of civilians. The IRA had a long-running terrorist campaign against the UK - it almost killed Maggie Thatcher. But that did not prompt the UK to start bombing Dublin by air and sea and invading it and killing hundreds of Irish civilians did it? The IRA was also mingling among cvilians. Do you see a parallel here?

The ceasefire was broken repeatedly on both sides. But as you yourself say Israel killed 10 people it alleges were Hamas militiants and were an imminent threat. That again reminds me of the imminent threat that Saddam's WMDs were supposed to result in a mushroom cloud.

Israel did not give Gaza back to the Palestinians. It essentially turned it into a large prison. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip Can you give me any sensible reason why it prevented say those Fulright scholars from leaving? Does the US provide terrorist training to Fulbright scholars?

Uncwilly: I read your links and it does not seem to be that Israel was showing restraint over Jul-Oct. It killed dozens and not hundreds of civilians. If that is your idea of restraint, well....

Right, well if you cite wikipedia as your source here is what the first two lines of the 2008 ceasefire section in this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2...3Gaza_conflict say:

On 19 June 2008, an Egyptian-brokered six-month cease-fire agreement "for the Gaza area"[36][80] went into effect between Hamas and Israel.[36] On 24 June 2008, Israel raided the city of Nablus on the West Bank, outside of the cease fire area,[81] killing a commander of Islamic Jihad (an organisation independent of Hamas) and one other Palestinian.[82]

And it goes on :

On 4 November 2008, Israeli troops raided a border area of the Gaza Strip, where the Israeli military claimed Hamas had built a tunnel which they claimed Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers. The same tunneling technique was used by Hamas to kidnap Gilad Shalit.[87] A member of Hamas was killed, and Hamas launched rockets over the border. Israeli strikes on the rocket launchers in Gaza killed another five Hamas members.[87] Hamas considered this attack a "massive breach of the truce,"[88] and Hamas rocket attacks increased sharply in November 2008, approaching the pre-truce levels.[89]

Regarding the phone warnings, as the Guardian article says, it is a form of psychological warfare. You haven't responded to my Al Qaeda hypothetical example.

Quote:
'...Mrs. Aziz...this is the IDF...yes that IDF....well!...no need to get nasty Mrs. Aziz!...Please ma'am, stop your screaming....that's better...look ma'am..we have some bad news....your house?...yes that house ma'am....well..I'm afraid it's going to be destroyed...ma'am...stop screaming please and let me explain..your son...well all of them...are..cowardly sick bastard terrorists....beats me why....nothing else to do I guess...anyway ma'am...they got pinched and now we're gonna blow up their home....well yes ma'am....technically, it's your home but...please ma'am...quit y' screaming.....we're gonna flatten it....when?...well....let's just say don't stop to get your coat....no, no time to pack either.....in fact, I'd start running...fast too...look out the window ma''am..see the people running?...you need to run with them....well, gotta go...ma'am...ma'aam...so do you ma'am.'

Israeli courtesy.

Last fiddled with by garo on 2009-01-10 at 09:47
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Old 2009-01-10, 14:25   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogue View Post
It is unfortunate that so many innocent people have died as part of this conflict. I know that Israel has been doing a lot to avoid the killing of them, but obviously not enough
Israel have not done anything to avoid hitting civilians. In fact they are aiming for civilians. During the last couple of days, Israel has:
  • Targeted a clearly marked UN food convoi, killing one. No excuse.
  • Told 110 civilians to seek refuge in a house, many of them children, and then bombed the hose killing 1/3. No excuse.
  • Bombed two UN run schools full of children. The have excused one of the bombings so far.
  • Civilian survivors are left to die by israli forces. Just two days ago four half dead children were found lying around their dead mother 80 meters form an Israeli checkpoint. There is no way the israeli terrorist could not have heard their screams.
I could go on, but it just make me sad.

All this after keeping Gaza closed for years. Only 300 lorries have been allowed to pass the borders each day, to supply the 1.5 million palestinian refugees in Gaza, and with stong restrictions. No building materials to fix broken civilian infrastructure like sewers, for example. As a comparision West Berlin needed 1000 transport planes every day to support a population of 2 million during the Soviet blockade, and they had working infrastructure and no war or around them. To get enough food and other supplies the refugees have dug tunnels to Egypt, and the tunnels are now bombed, and they are shooting UN food transports. What now? Israel wants to starve them to death.

Israel is a failed apartheid terrorist state. Not even the israeli supreme court have power over the army. It was a big mistake by the UN to give a small part of Palestine to the jews in 1948. Israel calls Hamas terrorists. This is to expect, just like South Africa called ANC terrorists and every occupant has called the resistance terrorists sice the word was invented.
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