Tomb of debate

[Uncwilly]

Originally Posted by chalsall

I might take my ball and go home as well.

You have contributed to the overall GIMPS project significantly. But, trying to use that as leverage to get your way is not a very sportsman like thing to do. I would suggest that in the forum rather than try to test the mods' tolerance, it would be better to focus on contributing gainfully to help newbies.

PS, am going to move the above quoted post and this one to the "Tone of debate" thread.

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by Uncwilly

But, trying to use that as leverage to get your way is not a very sportsman like thing to do. I would suggest that in the forum rather than try to test the mods' tolerance, it would be better to focus on contributing gainfully to help newbies.

OK. A fair point.

To put on the record I /do/ try to help newbies. Including to encourage them not to be fragile snowflakes.

In my "day job" I work with some really serious people, who are very comfortable telling me if they think I am incorrect. And I do the same for and to them.

Wonderful things happen when heated and honest debate takes place, in a respectful space.

[CRGreathouse]

Originally Posted by chalsall

Wonderful things happen when heated and honest debate takes place, in a respectful space.

I agree! And right now, I'm trying to ensure that we maintain the "respectful" part of that, which we've often avoided.

Let me use myself as an example. Before this post, I had posted three times in the last 24 hours, on these threads:
https://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=24208
https://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=24214
https://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=24216

All three were on similar topics, questionable mathematics. Two times I posted respectful challenges: if that proof were correct, then something else would have to follow: have you worked through its implications? The third time I posted the crank icon... not very welcoming, though perhaps accurate. I could have done better.

[Prime95]

[Batalov]

[lukerichards]

[kriesel]

Originally Posted by lukerichards

Quoted from a thread on ECM world records, replying here as I felt it was more relevant to this thread.

Be that as it may, it's about a way a point is made. Someone can be correct in fact and inappropriate in tone at the same time. One does not excuse the other. Someone who shouts expletives and hurls eggs at Donald Trump* could - in the opnion of many - be absolutely correct in their assessment of the President, but that doesn't make their actions acceptable as part of a civil political debate. (I just picked the present President, I'd have said Obama as my example four years ago).

I'd like first of all to repeat a call I made very early on - directly referring to individuals can make a conversation quite personal. There are others, some of whom have posted here while others have messaged me privately, who completely agree with my points and I think we would do a lot better to discuss the general points of what constitutes fair and reasonable discussion rather than attacking one person (me in this case) using quite condascending language as 'wrapped in bubble wrap'.

Secondly, it's interesting to note that a common response to someone being told they've been rude is to reply "no I haven't" or "you're just overreacting". During this discussion I've been told many times that I've inferred an aggressive interpretation of what was actually written and accused of putting thoughts in the author's mind. The irony is actually that I am not looking to be wrapped up in cotton wool nor am I shying away from an engaging discussion. To the contrary - I'm actually trying to have one!

I've said elsewhere (in fact it might have been in this thread!) - I'm a high school teacher and a former political campaigner. You'll struggle to find someone with a thicker skin with me, any interpretations of me being this sensitive little snow flake are quite funny. I do, however, abhor seeing one person putting another down unnecessarily. I love this forum in many ways. I have learned SO MUCH from this place and the advice has been invaluable. As an educator I have many many engaged and interested students who I regularly point in various directions. I would not DREAM of suggesting they go anywhere near this forum at the moment, because it is tarred by a few into a viscious and belittling community that looks down on people who don't know as much. I know students who love mathematics, but would be quickly put off by the tone of debate here. We could easily lose some excellent mathematicians the way we are going.

Ultimately I believe that as intelligent human beings who are all relatively well educated, we should certainly have the ability to make a counter argument without resorting to insults and belittling someone. I WANT a stimulating discussion. I want to be challenged.But I think it appears lots of people believe that "criticism" is congruent to "belittling". They are very different things.

Rude and helpful are almost entirely mutually exclusive. Being helpful necessitates connecting with someone, not ostracising them.

Re the above, Bravo, this one post #33 comes as close as I've seen to describing or demonstrating what I think the forum's values for interaction are or ought be. The top of the next page not so much, and quite a jolt by comparison.
(Lukerichards for moderator?)

Re https://www.mersenneforum.org/showpo...7&postcount=48
It's hard to argue with that.

[xilman]

Originally Posted by lukerichards

Rude and helpful are almost entirely mutually exclusive

I beg to disagree (though I noticed your "almost" qualifier). I have often been helped by individuals whom I would regard as being rude in the manner in which they have helped me.

De gustibus non disputandem est.

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by xilman

I beg to disagree (though I noticed your "almost" qualifier). I have often been helped by individuals whom I would regard as being rude in the manner in which they have helped me.

Bring it on! We deal with anything you can present. Bring it on!

Bring it on! (the music and the dance moves are layed in after, post...)

[Dr Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

I agree! And right now, I'm trying to ensure that we maintain the "respectful" part of that, which we've often avoided.

Let me use myself as an example. Before this post, I had posted three times in the last 24 hours, on these threads:
https://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=24208
https://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=24214
https://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=24216

All three were on similar topics, questionable mathematics. Two times I posted respectful challenges: if that proof were correct, then something else would have to follow: have you worked through its implications? The third time I posted the crank icon... not very welcoming, though perhaps accurate. I could have done better.

I am reminded of the following joke:

A long time ago a farmer wanted to buy a mule from his neighbor. He asked the neighbor if the mule had any problems.

"Not a problem," the neighbor said. "This mule will do anything you ask. All you have to do is ask him nicely." The neighbor added, "Just make sure you never mistreat my mule."

The price for the mule was fair, so the farmer bought the mule. The very next day the farmer wanted to plow his field. He hitched the mule to the plow. The mule had no intention of pulling that plow!

The farmer said, "Git up!" But the mule paid no attention. The farmer tried talking nicely until his face almost turned blue. It did no good. So, he called his neighbor over.

The neighbor came right away. When he heard the problem, he walked over and picked up a two-by-four. He hit the mule right in the head. Then he whispered in the mule's ear. That mule started plowing back and forth the field, turning the soil over without anyone standing behind the plow.

"I thought you said never to mistreat your mule," stated the farmer. "You said all that I had to do was to talk nicely to him."

"Well," answered the neighbor. "You just have to get his attention first before talking to him."

[a1call]

I think you still need someone to put a dynamic (ease when stuck) downward force. Otherwise the plow will just slide over the soil.
The same principal makes a waterskier glide over the water rather than penetrate the water while being pulled.