Tomb of debate

[jwaltos]

Regardless of whatever point is made there are always others willing to add, enhance, mock, demolish..or all of the prior simultaneously..to the same. Courtesy and understanding are first and foremost but if there is no such common ground then grabbing someone's <sweet tenders> with pliers and twisting (verbally of course) should get some attention if you are articulate and eloquent with a sharp yank emphasizing each point. One thing I learned within this forum is that there are some smart people here and you shouldn't get your knickers in a knot by being sensitive. OP, revenge is good motivator so if you feel someone's ego is bound up in their intellect then edify them accordingly..fear of intelligent retaliation should make certain people think twice about certain posts. As a high school teacher your nerves should be shot and whatever nice emotions you may have had should be scar tissue by now (unless you are new to the teaching profession in which case there is time...).

[Uncwilly]

Originally Posted by jwaltos

but if there is no such common ground then grabbing someone's <sweet tenders> with pliers and twisting (verbally of course) should get some attention if you are articulate and eloquent with a sharp yank emphasizing each point.

NO! you should not do that here. Having a debate here should never involve such. We want to have this forum more welcoming, not less. We have banned people that can get that.

if you feel someone's ego is bound up in their intellect then edify them accordingly..fear of intelligent retaliation should make certain people think twice about certain posts.

But how are you to know that that is the case? Tolerance first, then later point out their lack of willingness to learn.

whatever nice emotions you may have had should be scar tissue by now

But, this forum has a continuous influx of new people. Some of them young students. We want to build them up, not frighten them. We don't want a forum full of Fritz Zwicky's. I want 16 year old female math students to feel like they can be a part of this forum. If you don't, I can show you the way out.

[jwaltos]

I agree with your intent and stance. You have been a member of this forum far longer than I have. I'll PM you with some historical posts and once you have read through them (there are not that many) please let me know your opinion.

[jwaltos]

Uncwilly,

Assuming you have followed my PM'd request you can see just how naive I was at that time. By reading between the lines and looking at my more recent posts you will notice a shift. I have a lot to learn and am receptive to new things and most certainly appreciate different and new viewpoints.

That being said, you'll never need to show me the way out as I have already stepped out that door once and will have no problem doing it again. Just follow through on your word because I will be one of those forum members holding you to it. And if you fall down even once, I'll re-post what took place and I will leave this forum on that note. Do we have an understanding?

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by jwaltos

Just follow through on your word because I will be one of those forum members holding you to it. And if you fall down even once, I'll re-post what took place and I will leave this forum on that note. Do we have an understanding?

That comes across as a bit threatening.

Please remember that all moderators here are volunteers.

It's a bit of a thankless job, but some still do it.

[jwaltos]

Originally Posted by Uncwilly

NO! you should not do that here. Having a debate here should never involve such. We want to have this forum more welcoming, not less. We have banned people that can get that.... If you don't, I can show you the way out.

Chals, the sentence in the above quote is what I perceive as a threat also and one that the moderator will deliver on. I am stating what I will do if Uncwilly does not keep his word. I sincerely appreciate the OP's original post and Uncwilly's desire to make this forum a welcoming environment for everyone. I share the same view.

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by jwaltos

Chals, the sentence in the above quote is what I perceive as a threat also and one that the moderator will deliver on.

Misnaming me, and demanding a moderator do something, is extremely insulting.

How not to make friends and influence people...

Originally Posted by jwaltos

I am stating what I will do if Uncwilly does not keep his word.

Stamp your little feet and take your ball home while you cry?

With all due respect, not a huge loss....

[jwaltos]

Originally Posted by chalsall

Misnaming me, and demanding a moderator do something, is extremely insulting.

How not to make friends and influence people...



Stamp your little feet and take your ball home while you cry?

With all due respect, not a huge loss....

We all know that "With all due respect.." means F off. And you may be right, not a loss Chalsall and I apologize for misnaming you. I am holding a moderator to a keeping his word with the only currency I have here, my membership.

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by jwaltos

We all know that "With all due respect.." means F off.

Incorrect.

Instead, it is used to express polite disagreement. With the acknowledgement that one might be incorrect, but are interested in engaging in an honest debate to find the truth.

[xilman]

Originally Posted by chalsall

Incorrect.

Instead, it is used to express polite disagreement. With the acknowledgement that one might be incorrect, but are interested in engaging in an honest debate to find the truth.

[lukerichards]

Quoted from a thread on ECM world records, replying here as I felt it was more relevant to this thread.

Originally Posted by M344587487

But not wrong.

Be that as it may, it's about a way a point is made. Someone can be correct in fact and inappropriate in tone at the same time. One does not excuse the other. Someone who shouts expletives and hurls eggs at Donald Trump* could - in the opnion of many - be absolutely correct in their assessment of the President, but that doesn't make their actions acceptable as part of a civil political debate. (I just picked the present President, I'd have said Obama as my example four years ago).

Originally Posted by M344587487

You seem to prioritise being wrapped in bubble wrap first and being part of an engaging discussion second.

I'd like first of all to repeat a call I made very early on - directly referring to individuals can make a conversation quite personal. There are others, some of whom have posted here while others have messaged me privately, who completely agree with my points and I think we would do a lot better to discuss the general points of what constitutes fair and reasonable discussion rather than attacking one person (me in this case) using quite condascending language as 'wrapped in bubble wrap'.

Secondly, it's interesting to note that a common response to someone being told they've been rude is to reply "no I haven't" or "you're just overreacting". During this discussion I've been told many times that I've inferred an aggressive interpretation of what was actually written and accused of putting thoughts in the author's mind. The irony is actually that I am not looking to be wrapped up in cotton wool nor am I shying away from an engaging discussion. To the contrary - I'm actually trying to have one!

I've said elsewhere (in fact it might have been in this thread!) - I'm a high school teacher and a former political campaigner. You'll struggle to find someone with a thicker skin with me, any interpretations of me being this sensitive little snow flake are quite funny. I do, however, abhor seeing one person putting another down unnecessarily. I love this forum in many ways. I have learned SO MUCH from this place and the advice has been invaluable. As an educator I have many many engaged and interested students who I regularly point in various directions. I would not DREAM of suggesting they go anywhere near this forum at the moment, because it is tarred by a few into a viscious and belittling community that looks down on people who don't know as much. I know students who love mathematics, but would be quickly put off by the tone of debate here. We could easily lose some excellent mathematicians the way we are going.

Ultimately I believe that as intelligent human beings who are all relatively well educated, we should certainly have the ability to make a counter argument without resorting to insults and belittling someone. I WANT a stimulating discussion. I want to be challenged.But I think it appears lots of people believe that "criticism" is congruent to "belittling". They are very different things.

Originally Posted by M344587487

90% of what you call rude I call being to the point or even just plain helpful, there's very little in the way of personal attack it's all about the discussion.

Rude and helpful are almost entirely mutually exclusive. Being helpful necessitates connecting with someone, not ostracising them.

Originally Posted by M344587487

By pointing out "injustices" that are in fact honest attempts to help you're alienating people to the point where ad hominem's start to look tempting in their catharsis. There is clearly a clash of thought process but from my point of view it is your view of things that needs to bend. Not only do I deem the way you seem to take some things as grossly exaggerated or entirely missing the point, but if you keep your responses as they are hostility is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I didn't know that communication is a tricky concept I could easily label your meta posts as trolling specifically to elicit hostility, ironic isn't it.

I don't think there is much to respond to in this section, but I didn't want to give the impression I was avoiding it. It is largely just our differences of opinion, but if you would particularly like a response to this bit, let me know (either publicly or by PM.)