The Right Way to Keep Bare Gubs

[xilman]

A solution which is very far from final.

[Dr Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by xilman

A solution which is very far from final.

Il Duce said, "If they had protection inside, maybe it could have been a different situation."

So -- now you need to hire your own armed security in order to avail yourself of your First Amendment right to the free exercise of religion?

Later, Il Duce recited a condemnation of anti-Semitism.

I'll say one thing. Someone has convinced Il Duce of the need to mouth the right sentiments regarding political violence and religious persecution -- however much his own sentiments lead to statements encouraging such things.

[Dr Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by xilman

A solution which is very far from final.

The ADL's audit of Anti-Semitic incidents in the USA has compiled the following numbers of incidents over a 3-year period:

2015 -- 942
2016 -- 1267
2017 -- 1986

I can think of one political figure whose rise has accompanied this ominous trend. [W.C. Fields voice]It must be a coincidence...[/W.C. Fields voice]

[ewmayer]

Chilling article on the Thousand Oaks shooter, in the context of the broader backdrop of US permawars, rampant economic inequality and the overall and ongoing debasement of society and loss of civic institutions and social support networks which used to form part of that long-lost thing, "community":

Afghanistan war veteran kills 12 at a southern California dance club - World Socialist Web Site

The connection between the eruption of US militarism in every corner of the globe and the epidemic of anti-social violence and mayhem at home could hardly be clearer.

American imperialism recruits young men and women, often “economic conscripts,” to do its dirty work in the Middle East, Central Asia, Africa and elsewhere, forcing them to commit horrendous crimes and undergo brutal, psyche-destroying experiences. When the Pentagon has done with them, it releases them to their families and into the general public. In too many cases, these veterans are walking time-bombs.

Hugh Gusterson, professor of anthropology and international affairs at George Washington University, argued in 2015 that while veterans accounted for 13 percent of the adult population, “more than a third of the adult perpetrators of the 43 worst mass killings since 1984 had been in the United States military.” He added, “It is clear that, in the etiology of mass killings, military service is an important risk factor.”
...
More generally, the spree of mass killings has its deeper roots in the toxic soil of American capitalism. Gun Violence Archive estimates that the 307 shootings involving four or more victims this year alone have claimed 1,328 lives and injured another 1,251. The website calculates that there have been 49,000 gun violence incidents so far in 2018 in the US, leading to more than 12,000 deaths. Some 45,000 Americans took their own lives in 2016, while drug overdoses killed more than 72,000 in the US in 2017.

No remotely healthy society could generate such appalling statistics. America, as we have previously noted, is a nation at war with itself.

[Dr Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by ewmayer

Chilling article on the Thousand Oaks shooter, in the context of the broader backdrop of US permawars, rampant economic inequality and the overall and ongoing debasement of society and loss of civic institutions and social support networks which used to form part of that long-lost thing, "community":

Afghanistan war veteran kills 12 at a southern California dance club - World Socialist Web Site

In the list at Intentional homicides (per 100,000 people) - Country Ranking, Russia is #33 with 11.3 (in 2015), while the USA is #83, with 4.9 (also in 2015).

Homicide statistics may give some insight into the actual reasons people have been trying to walk to the USA from Central America. Countries of origin of these migrants (besides the Middle East, of course) include Nicaragua, #31 with a rate of 11.50 (in 2012), Guatemala at #10 with a rate of 31.20, Honduras at #3 with a rate of 63.80, and El Salvador, #1 with a rate of 108.60.

WRT Nicaragua, it may be worth noting that in recent times, that arch-capitalist Daniel Ortega's government has, with the aid of volunteer paramilitary thugs, been suppressing demonstrations of popular discontent with great brutality, highlighted by an arson attack that killed six members of a family, including an infant. Il Duce would be proud!

[retina]

Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus

In the list at Intentional homicides (per 100,000 people) - Country Ranking, Russia is #33 with 11.3 (in 2015), while the USA is #83, with 4.9 (also in 2015).

So still a long way to go to be in among the other four eyes AU, NZ, CA and UK.

[Dr Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by retina

So still a long way to go to be in among the other four eyes AU, NZ, CA and UK.

Yup. (sigh)

Gee, maybe there's something about country music venues... I note that at least one person was at, and survived, both the Las Vegas and the Thousand Oaks mass shootings. Also, at least one person was at, and survived the Las Vegas mass shooting, but was killed at the Thousand Oaks mass shooting.

Also, at the Thousand Oaks shooting, a Sheriff's deputy responding to the "active shooter" call -- Sgt. Ron Helus, about a year from retirement after 30 years -- was among the victims. The gunman, as is often the case with mass shooters, killed himself. So much for "It takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun." It usually takes the bad guy with the gun stopping himself. If only they did that first -- preferably with no shots fired...

[kriesel]

Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus

It usually takes the bad guy with the gun stopping himself. If only they did that first -- preferably with no shots fired...

The oft quoted statistic of 33,000 gun homicides in the US annually includes over 20,000 people who did just that; killed themselves with firearms apparently intentionally. The great majority of them did not go after others first. Were no firearms to be available to the ordinary civilians, by some herculean roundup of all the hundreds of millions already available, many of those 20,000 plus would substitute other methods to similar ghastly effect.
A common denominator in mass shootings is the murderer selects locations where firearms for self defense have been prohibited, so his prospects (usually it's a male), when violating multiple laws, of a large body count are higher. Average count per instance where self defense is prohibited is over 14; where allowed, 2 and a fraction. Sandy Hook was a gun-prohibited school with a locked door; Adam Lanza killed his mother in her bed, stole her guns, blasted his way into the school with them through locked doors, and faced no effective opposition from the unfortunate unarmed staff, 6 of whom died along with 20 children. Holmes bypassed certain theaters in Aurora, to shoot up one which prohibited arms, even by off duty police there to see the movie with their families. The country music concert in Las Vegas banned arms for off duty police also, and even squirt gun toys, and failed to provide an adequate security substitute, for a concert attendance of tens of thousands, including off duty police who were wounded or killed. Going disarmed was a condition of entry to the special event.

We don't ban fire extinguishers under the pretense it will discourage arsonists. For good reason; it wouldn't work. Unilateral disarmament does not work to prevent mass shootings; see much of central and South America and the elevated murder rates in the gun-restricted legal regimes there. Even in the highly restrictive environment of prisons, people build and use shivs, zip guns, etc. on each other, or get stuff smuggled in, or take it from those in charge. I much prefer people have enough self respect and respect for others to not harm each other. However, in the last resort, when evil is already afoot, armed response is no magical guarantee of zero harm, but in the right hands ALREADY ON SCENE it routinely saves lives.

Another factor that often gets ignored is the emptying of mental hospitals and budget support for them that happened decades ago. People that then would have been under close supervision are now on their own. Some of them get shot by police after being difficult or presenting a perceived threat in public.

[Dr Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by kriesel

The oft quoted statistic of 33,000 gun homicides in the US annually includes over 20,000 people who did just that; killed themselves with firearms apparently intentionally. <snip>

I don't know who quotes that as a statistic. The fact is, homicide and suicide are legally separate, being two of four possible "manners" of death (the other two are accident and natural causes).

I also don't count all people who suicide by gun as "bad guys with guns." But, whether they be would-be mass shooters or not, I would rather they stop themselves, as I said, preferably with no shots fired.

Two of your three examples are amazingly poor -- the Aurora, CO theater shooting and the Las Vegas massacre.

Holmes bypassed certain theaters in Aurora, to shoot up one which prohibited arms, even by off duty police there to see the movie with their families. <snip>

More pertinent IMO is that he attacked a theater which disregarded fire exits being propped open. Theaters used to have the ushers monitor them during movies (and many today have alarms on these doors) in order to prevent ticket holders from letting their friends in for free. Holmes actually left the theater by a fire exit to "gear up," and prevented the door from closing by itself. If someone had simply shut that door before he tried to re-enter, the attack wouldn't have happened at all. I also wonder whether the body count would have been much higher if other people with guns started firing in the darkened theater. The potential for "friendly fire" casualties in a dark, crowded room shouldn't be dismissed lightly.

The country music concert in Las Vegas banned arms for off duty police also, and even squirt gun toys, and failed to provide an adequate security substitute, for a concert attendance of tens of thousands, including off duty police who were wounded or killed. Going disarmed was a condition of entry to the special event. <snip>

The attacker didn't enter the venue. He blazed away at an automatic-weapons rate of fire, from a 32^nd floor window. For anyone in the venue to hit the attacker -- especially with a pistol -- would have been a phenomenal shot.

Perhaps a better example of "good guys with guns" almost certainly saving lives was the shooting on Capitol Hill in July 1998. (This incident also plays into your next point.) A paranoid schizophrenic named Russell Weston stole a gun from his father, drove cross-country, and went, armed, to Capitol Hill. A Capitol Hiill police officer saw him go around a metal detector, and asked him to go through it. Weston shot him dead, and headed in. He made it to the office of Tom DeLay, then Majority Whip, and shot a detective who, though mortally wounded, shot Weston and wounded him sufficiently to stop the attack. Two other people were wounded. Weston is still considered incompetent to stand trial, and the criminal charges against him are in abeyance. His lawyers fought (unsuccessfully) against his being involunarily medicated. They were concerned that, if he became fit for trial, he could be convicted and sentenced to death, despite having been diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. As we know, the man who shot President Reagan was found "Not Guilty by reason of insanity." Apparently laws were changed after that, making it nearly impossible to mount a successful insanity defense in cases of shooting federal officials or employees.

Another factor that often gets ignored is the emptying of mental hospitals and budget support for them that happened decades ago. People that then would have been under close supervision are now on their own. Some of them get shot by police after being difficult or presenting a perceived threat in public.

Yes, "de-institutionalization" has not been a roaring success. I'm not sure how much of a factor it is in mass shootings, but it certainly is a factor in the problem of deranged people committing crimes (including shootings); and the nuisances, health risks, and criminal behavior of homeless people, of whom, I have read, about a third are suffering from chronic mental problems. One result has been, an awful lot of mentally ill people wind up in jails and prisons, which are generally not suited to treating them.

[Uncwilly]

Originally Posted by kriesel

Were no firearms to be available to the ordinary civilians, by some herculean roundup of all the hundreds of millions already available, many of those 20,000 plus would substitute other methods to similar ghastly effect.

Lack of availability of firearms does reduce the rate of suicide.
Start at page 10 or so https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...7fRnvgrk0/edit

And page 5: https://www.researchgate.net/profile...prevention.pdf

[retina]

So the problem boils down to the belief of the "guns for protection" nonsense. Guns are an offensive¹ weapon, not a defensive shield/barrier.

So often in the USA I've seen the first response of the police is to point their weapon at someone. And in every other civilised country the action of threatening with a weapon is the last response of the police. Many countries don't even have armed police, except for some very specialised squads.

[1] In more than one sense of the word.