Engine-assisted game vs Stockfish, move 14 discussion

MooMoo2 · 2016-11-23, 06:00

The most popular move on the move 13 poll was ...Be6. Stockfish played 14. Nc2, and the FEN is:
r2qk2r/5pbp/p1npb3/1p1Npp2/4P3/2PB4/PPN2PPP/R2QK2R b KQkq - 4 14

Game so far: 1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bf4 e5 8. Bg5 a6 9. Na3 b5 10. Bxf6 gxf6 11. Nd5 f5 12. c3 Bg7 13. Bd3 Be6 14. Nc2

Depth: 49 ply. Nodes searched: 1,992,315,367k (~1992 G)

WMHalsdorf · 2016-11-23, 15:54

In no particular order I see 3 possible moves.
14...Rb8
14...O-O
14...fxe4

unconnected · 2016-11-23, 19:06

14. Nc2 not so popular as Qh5 or Nxb5. There are two continuations for black - 0-0 and Bxd5. I vote for the second - Bxd5 exd5 Ne7 and black is ok.

gd_barnes · 2016-11-24, 08:03

I had also expected 14. Qh5 from Stockfish.

I put Komodo 10 to work on our current position. At 39 ply, this is what it came up with:

14...O-O 15. a4 bxa4 16. O-O Kh8 -0.11
14...fxe4 15. Bxe4 O-O 16. g4 f5 -0.14
14...Bxd5 15. exd5 Ne7 16. a4 e4 -0.26

So Komodo likes 14...O-O here. The opening DB that I am looking at also likes 14...O-O. The move has been played by black in 10 out of 11 games (Bxd5 in the other one). White has scored 3-2-5 in those games so it is not significant either way.

So without doing much analysis myself I have to like 14...O-O here. But of course I'll do some analysis by the weekend.

henryzz · 2016-11-24, 16:53

14...O-O is a good move although we do need to time it right.
To me the next logical place for white to move its knight on c2 is e3. This would make removing the knight from d5 very difficult. Should we do Bxd5 now before Nce3 or a forcing move such as fxe4 before Bxd5.
As Komodo suggests we do need to be aware that white can attack our b pawn with the move a4. This would allow white to advance the c pawn if we do bxa4 in response to a4. That further defends d5.
d5 is probably the critical square in this position. We need to get white's pieces off that square long enough to get the d6 pawn on it while being protected.

My database has 4 games for both Bxd5 and O-O. 5/8 games are draws. Most of the games are between IMs not GMs.

For me it is fxe4 or Bxd5. I need to look at these further to see how they pan out. Letting white have a free move currently could be detrimental to gaining the d5 square.

LaurV · 2016-11-25, 05:43

I like Bxd5, with Ne7 continuation, but the position is tough, it needs more thinking, and some engine run too (not done yet after the last SF move, but done before). I investigated 14...Bxd5 15. exd5 e4 a little bit last night (manually), but it does not turn extremely well for us.

WMHalsdorf · 2016-11-25, 23:15

Concerning 15.Nce3 as a response to 14...0-0
15... fxe4 16.Bxe4 f5 2 likely paths
(A) 17.Bc2
(B) 17.Nf6+ Rxf6 18.Bxc6 Rb8
With (A) as the more complex line.

gd_barnes · 2016-11-26, 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

Concerning 15.Nce3 as a response to 14...0-0
15... fxe4 16.Bxe4 f5 2 likely paths
(A) 17.Bc2
(B) 17.Nf6+ Rxf6 18.Bxc6 Rb8
With (A) as the more complex line.

I do not believe that SF will respond with 15. Nce3 if we play 14...O-O. After your (A) line of 15...fxe4 16. Bxe4 f5 17. Bc2 we have a robust center and Komodo shows that black has nearly equalized.

Komodo's top 3 responses to 14...O-O are:
15. a4
15. O-O
15. Nce3

LaurV · 2016-11-26, 17:42

Actually castling is a very good move! We spent here over one hour with the board and Rybka on Gary's moves and we are good with castling. After a couple of moves, we get the same scores for both Bxd5 and O-O (+0.28) and we get a lower score (for black, that is +0.48) for fxe4. We are getting lazy now and the temptation to let Rybka think instead of playing with the woods on the board is huge, but this has its part of fun too...

We don't think we could ever play "honest" correspondence chess games after this match

Moreover, something makes us think that SF will reply castling too.

Edit: we played some games against Rybka, white and also black. We lost all of them (we didn't play to the end, but gave up when the situation was bad). Big difference from Win7's Chess Titans.

gd_barnes · 2016-11-26, 19:46

I also like O-O the more that I looked at it. I feel like SF will respond with O-O or a4.

henryzz · 2016-11-27, 22:16

After looking further at 15. Nce3 I agree that is probably less likely than O-O. Given that O-O isn't really a direct threat we should make sure that a4 is ok.

2016-11-23, 06:00	#1
MooMoo2 "Michael Kwok" Mar 2006 2²×5×59 Posts	Engine-assisted game vs Stockfish, move 14 discussion The most popular move on the move 13 poll was ...Be6. Stockfish played 14. Nc2, and the FEN is: r2qk2r/5pbp/p1npb3/1p1Npp2/4P3/2PB4/PPN2PPP/R2QK2R b KQkq - 4 14 Game so far: 1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bf4 e5 8. Bg5 a6 9. Na3 b5 10. Bxf6 gxf6 11. Nd5 f5 12. c3 Bg7 13. Bd3 Be6 14. Nc2 Depth: 49 ply. Nodes searched: 1,992,315,367k (~1992 G) Attached Thumbnails

2016-11-24, 08:03	#4
gd_barnes "Gary" May 2007 Overland Park, KS 12295₁₀ Posts	I had also expected 14. Qh5 from Stockfish. I put Komodo 10 to work on our current position. At 39 ply, this is what it came up with: 14...O-O 15. a4 bxa4 16. O-O Kh8 -0.11 14...fxe4 15. Bxe4 O-O 16. g4 f5 -0.14 14...Bxd5 15. exd5 Ne7 16. a4 e4 -0.26 So Komodo likes 14...O-O here. The opening DB that I am looking at also likes 14...O-O. The move has been played by black in 10 out of 11 games (Bxd5 in the other one). White has scored 3-2-5 in those games so it is not significant either way. So without doing much analysis myself I have to like 14...O-O here. But of course I'll do some analysis by the weekend. Last fiddled with by gd_barnes on 2016-11-24 at 08:04

2016-11-25, 05:43	#6
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41·251 Posts	I like Bxd5, with Ne7 continuation, but the position is tough, it needs more thinking, and some engine run too (not done yet after the last SF move, but done before). I investigated 14...Bxd5 15. exd5 e4 a little bit last night (manually), but it does not turn extremely well for us. Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2016-11-25 at 05:45 Reason: s/d4/e4/

2016-11-26, 17:42	#9
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 2833₁₆ Posts	Actually castling is a very good move! We spent here over one hour with the board and Rybka on Gary's moves and we are good with castling. After a couple of moves, we get the same scores for both Bxd5 and O-O (+0.28) and we get a lower score (for black, that is +0.48) for fxe4. We are getting lazy now and the temptation to let Rybka think instead of playing with the woods on the board is huge, but this has its part of fun too... We don't think we could ever play "honest" correspondence chess games after this match Moreover, something makes us think that SF will reply castling too. Edit: we played some games against Rybka, white and also black. We lost all of them (we didn't play to the end, but gave up when the situation was bad). Big difference from Win7's Chess Titans. Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2016-11-26 at 17:49

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2016-11-23, 15:54	#2
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³·19 Posts	In no particular order I see 3 possible moves. 14...Rb8 14...O-O 14...fxe4

2016-11-23, 19:06	#3
unconnected May 2009 Moscow, Russia 2963₁₀ Posts	14. Nc2 not so popular as Qh5 or Nxb5. There are two continuations for black - 0-0 and Bxd5. I vote for the second - Bxd5 exd5 Ne7 and black is ok.

2016-11-24, 16:53	#5
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	14...O-O is a good move although we do need to time it right. To me the next logical place for white to move its knight on c2 is e3. This would make removing the knight from d5 very difficult. Should we do Bxd5 now before Nce3 or a forcing move such as fxe4 before Bxd5. As Komodo suggests we do need to be aware that white can attack our b pawn with the move a4. This would allow white to advance the c pawn if we do bxa4 in response to a4. That further defends d5. d5 is probably the critical square in this position. We need to get white's pieces off that square long enough to get the d6 pawn on it while being protected. My database has 4 games for both Bxd5 and O-O. 5/8 games are draws. Most of the games are between IMs not GMs. For me it is fxe4 or Bxd5. I need to look at these further to see how they pan out. Letting white have a free move currently could be detrimental to gaining the d5 square.

2016-11-25, 23:15	#7
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	Concerning 15.Nce3 as a response to 14...0-0 15... fxe4 16.Bxe4 f5 2 likely paths (A) 17.Bc2 (B) 17.Nf6+ Rxf6 18.Bxc6 Rb8 With (A) as the more complex line.

2016-11-26, 19:46	#10
gd_barnes "Gary" May 2007 Overland Park, KS 5·2,459 Posts	I also like O-O the more that I looked at it. I feel like SF will respond with O-O or a4.

2016-11-27, 22:16	#11
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 13775₈ Posts	After looking further at 15. Nce3 I agree that is probably less likely than O-O. Given that O-O isn't really a direct threat we should make sure that a4 is ok.