Move 33 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish

[MooMoo2]

The poll for move 32 just closed, and the most popular move was Rxf7. Stockfish responded with 32...Nd3, and the FEN is:
r6k/1p3R1p/1p3p2/5N2/8/3n2P1/P1r4P/R5K1 w - - 1 33

Game so far: 1.e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. exd5 exd5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. Bxd7+ Nbxd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 O-O 12. Nf5 Re8 13. Nxe7+ Rxe7 14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 Nc4 16. Bxf6 gxf6 17. Qd4 Qb6 18. Qxb6 axb6 19. Rfd1 Re5 20. f4 Re2 21. Nd4 Re4 22. Nf5 Nxb2 23. Rxd5 Rxf4 24. g3 Rc4 25. Nh6+ Kg7 26. Nf5+ Kf8 27. Rd7 Rxc2 28. Nh6 Kg7 29. Nf5+ Kg6 30. Nh4+ Kg7 31. Nf5+ Kh8 32. Rxf7 Nd3

[WMHalsdorf]

33.Rxb7 If Ne5 then 34.Rf1

[Brian-E]

Yes, I guess we intended 33.Rxb7 taking another pawn. But I'm wondering if we should fear the reply 33...Nf2. The threat is then 34...Nh3+, and if 35.Kh1 (if we want to go to f1 we have to safeguard our knight against ...Rf2+ first), we are in a mating net with Black's moves ...h5, ...Rd/e8 - d/e2 xh2.

If 33.Rxb7 Nf2 34.Kg2 Ng4+ 35.Kf3 (35.Kh3? h5 36.Rh1 Raxa2 is even worse) h5 with a dangerous attack on our king.

If all that really is dangerous, maybe we ought to play 33.Rf1 now to prevent it. That does allow 33...Rcxa2 of course, but if all Black wants to do is take pawns then we should get a draw by clearing up Black's pawns too.

Is 33.Rxb7 Nf2 a serious threat?

[gd_barnes]

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

33.Rxb7 If Ne5 then 34.Rf1

Agreed. I feel like SF will respond with 33...Ne5 here effectively threating our h pawn with Nf3+. 34. Rf1 appears to be our best response although 34. h4 could be considered also.

Other reasonable responses for SF here would be 33...h5 or Rb2. I think that our response to either move would be 34. h4.

On another note, I do not think that the swap with 33. Rxb7 Ne5 34. Rxb6 Nf3+ 35. Kf1 Nxh2+ 36. Nf3+ Kf1 would be good. We are likely to have difficulty protecting our a-pawn in the end game whereas black can easily guard his two pawns with his king and knight. We are better to swap off our a-pawn for his b-pawn at some point if it comes down to that.

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Yes, I guess we intended 33.Rxb7 taking another pawn. But I'm wondering if we should fear the reply 33...Nf2. The threat is then 34...Nh3+, and if 35.Kh1 (if we want to go to f1 we have to safeguard our knight against ...Rf2+ first), we are in a mating net with Black's moves ...h5, ...Rd/e8 - d/e2 xh2.

If 33.Rxb7 Nf2 34.Kg2 Ng4+ 35.Kf3 (35.Kh3? h5 36.Rh1 Raxa2 is even worse) h5 with a dangerous attack on our king.

If all that really is dangerous, maybe we ought to play 33.Rf1 now to prevent it. That does allow 33...Rcxa2 of course, but if all Black wants to do is take pawns then we should get a draw by clearing up Black's pawns too.

Is 33.Rxb7 Nf2 a serious threat?

I don't see the mating net that you are referring to. Firstly black has to give up a pawn to attempt it. Secondly he does not have time to set it up because we can keep playing cat-and-mouse with him if he tries it. Therefore there would be no reason for us to play 35. Kf3 or Kh3 in your original line. We should play 35. Kf1 instead. Here is a line that transposes to what you are intending where I have SF advance is h-pawn first before Nh3+, which then forces us to advance our a-pawn.
33. Rxb7 Nf2 34. Rxb6 h5 35. a4 Nh3+ 36. Kh1 Rd8 37. Ne3 Re2 38. Nf1
-or-
36...Re8 37. Nd4 Rd2 38. Nf3 Re2 39. Rb5! (we are winning here)

Either way we are up a pawn and any attempt by black to win is met with stiff defensive resistence and he will have some difficulty regaining the lost pawn.

[Brian-E]

On reading your last post, Gary, I agree that a winning attack for Black after 33.Rxb7 Nf2 does not seem to be in evidence. I also feel that if we play 33.Rf1 then Black will capture our a pawn and retain one of its b pawns, which in itself gives Black serious winning prospects.

Therefore I agree with 33.Rxb7.

For purposes of the poll, and possible further discussion, maybe 33.Rxf6 is an alternative. However I prefer 33.Rxb7 because I think the b pawns are most dangerous in an endgame and eliminating those is our best prospect of a draw.

[WMHalsdorf]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

On reading your last post, Gary, I agree that a winning attack for Black after 33.Rxb7 Nf2 does not seem to be in evidence. I also feel that if we play 33.Rf1 then Black will capture our a pawn and retain one of its b pawns, which in itself gives Black serious winning prospects.

Therefore I agree with 33.Rxb7.

For purposes of the poll, and possible further discussion, maybe 33.Rxf6 is an alternative. However I prefer 33.Rxb7 because I think the b pawns are most dangerous in an endgame and eliminating those is our best prospect of a draw.

I also looked at 33.Rxf6 but preferred 33.Rxb7

[richs]

Here is how I see the line going per above:

33. Rxb7 Ne5
34. Rf1 Ng4
35. h4 h5
36. a4 Rxa4
37. Rxb6 Ra8
38. Rb5

[gd_barnes]

Originally Posted by richs

Here is how I see the line going per above:

33. Rxb7 Ne5
34. Rf1 Ng4
35. h4 h5
36. a4 Rxa4
37. Rxb6 Ra8
38. Rb5

I don't think that this line is good for us. We have a better move 35. That is, I think that your 34...Ng4 can be followed by our 35. h3 and would leave black's knight in an awkward place. He can only play 35...Nh2 or move the knight right back with 35...Ne5 and we have gained a tempo.

It is bad for us because if both sides did move as you suggested through our move 37 then black has a better move 37...Raa2. Here black's doubled rooks on our second rank gives him winning chances.

Since SF would likely dismiss 34...Ng4 due to its badly placed knight after 35. h3, I think that the following is a more likely line:
33. Rxb7 Ne5
34. Rf1 h5
35. Nd4 Rc4 (or Rd2)
36. Nb3

[WMHalsdorf]

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

I don't think that this line is good for us. We have a better move 35. That is, I think that your 34...Ng4 can be followed by our 35. h3 and would leave black's knight in an awkward place. He can only play 35...Nh2 or move the knight right back with 35...Ne5 and we have gained a tempo.

It is bad for us because if both sides did move as you suggested through our move 37 then black has a better move 37...Raa2. Here black's doubled rooks on our second rank gives him winning chances.

Since SF would likely dismiss 34...Ng4 due to its badly placed knight after 35. h3, I think that the following is a more likely line:
33. Rxb7 Ne5
34. Rf1 h5
35. Nd4 Rc4 (or Rd2)
36. Nb3

Instead of 35. Nd4 I would go with 35.a4 which delays SF connecting the rooks on the 2nd rank allowing us to pick off the b6 pawn.