Move 16 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish - Page 2

LaurV · 2016-01-13, 03:36

The two moves seem equivalent, to me. Qd4 seems safer and somehow more aggressive, but it may prove much more difficult to play later. Taking the horse is the easy way, simplifying the board. As studied before, we are strong after any of the two sequences. I will vote with the majority

2016-01-13, 05:29

Aye, we'ere all in the same boat and as long as all the oars are in the water there will be progress. The ongoing opinions provided, good, bad and indecent, have all been worthy of consideration. Does anyone yet see an outline of the final draw position? Regarding a possible white win, the Queen and rook/bishop aarrrrr indispensable..otherwise, carnage then a positional pawn/King game. (Note: I restrained myself from contemplating a loss until the very end where I can see black forcing white into making some choices requiring careful thought.) This is what my murky crystal ball seems to show.

LaurV · 2016-01-13, 06:13

I was one of the optimists in the beginning, but now I don't see any win. We can hope for a win against a human, but not against a computer, there is no way we could win agains SF from this "dead" position.

SF's biggest "luck", but his biggest "misfortune" too, was selecting this defense which is quite a know drawn. Which is good for us because we learned a lot - we never played this in real matches. But bad for us, because we can't win

Joking apart, he could play a sicilian or something more dynamic, and more dramatic, and then we could have been winners or been dead already (most probably the last), or already immersed into endless arguments against each-other for the last 10 moves. SF would have laugh at us with all his diodes, as someone said.

But this one opening is not very played, and quite drawish, so not so many branches to select from the databases we accessed, and not so many variants to argument right now. You see, we are for the first time in this forum's life, not even arguing against each other when we select the moves

Dubslow · 2016-01-13, 06:41

I've seen draws like this turned into wins 30 moves later, and by pure (massive) skill on one side rather than misplays on the other. It's still out there. Stockfish is of course an incredibly formidable opponent.

Brian-E · 2016-01-13, 10:30

My preference currently goes to 16.Bxf6 on the grounds that Black's reply 16...gxf6 is absolutely forced (not 16...Ne3 17.Bxe7). Why invite any unpleasant surprises?

Then we can play 17.Qd4. I actually consider the position rather double-edged and not the dead draw that some people are suggesting. Our plusses are Black's appalling pawn structure (the king-and-pawn ending would be a win for us) and Black's wide open castled king. Black on the other hand is likely to control the open e file and has a well placed knight causing us difficulties.

gd_barnes · 2016-01-15, 19:34

I agree that Bxf6 is somewhat better so as to not invite unpleasant surprises. It looks like it will come down to the wire on the poll. It's 3-3.

WMHalsdorf · 2016-01-15, 20:26

At the of this game would it be possible to see what SF considered to be our best move was.

richs · 2016-01-16, 03:45

I have been closely following the game but have not participated since my attention has been sporadic due to work commitments. However at this point I'd like to give my two cents although I will not vote since I would feel like I'm butting in.

I feel the two moves under consideration are pretty much a wash. Here is how I think the two lines would go for the next few moves:

16. Qd4 Qd6
17. Rab1 Rae8
18. Bxf6 gxf6
19. Qxa7 Ne3
20. Rf2 Nc4

or

16. Bxf6 gxf6
17. Qd4 Qb6
18. Rab1 Qe6
19. c3 Qf5
20. Qf2 Rae8

Brian-E · 2016-01-16, 10:19

Good to see you involved too, Rich.

While I obviously don't speak for anyone except myself, my understanding is that this game is between Stockfish (operated by MooMoo2) and potentially all members of mersenneforum.org. And I would say the more people who take part the better. So please do cast your vote if you have a preference between the lines you give.

As far as I'm concerned, that goes for anyone else who has been watching the game but has so far not taken part.

LaurV · 2016-01-17, 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Good to see you involved too, Rich.

While I obviously don't speak for anyone except myself, my understanding is that this game is between Stockfish (operated by MooMoo2) and potentially all members of mersenneforum.org. And I would say the more people who take part the better. So please do cast your vote if you have a preference between the lines you give.

As far as I'm concerned, that goes for anyone else who has been watching the game but has so far not taken part.

+1!

2016-01-13, 03:36	#12
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41·251 Posts	The two moves seem equivalent, to me. Qd4 seems safer and somehow more aggressive, but it may prove much more difficult to play later. Taking the horse is the easy way, simplifying the board. As studied before, we are strong after any of the two sequences. I will vote with the majority Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2016-01-13 at 03:37

2016-01-13, 05:29	#13
jwaltos 10010001000000₂ Posts	Aye, we'ere all in the same boat and as long as all the oars are in the water there will be progress. The ongoing opinions provided, good, bad and indecent, have all been worthy of consideration. Does anyone yet see an outline of the final draw position? Regarding a possible white win, the Queen and rook/bishop aarrrrr indispensable..otherwise, carnage then a positional pawn/King game. (Note: I restrained myself from contemplating a loss until the very end where I can see black forcing white into making some choices requiring careful thought.) This is what my murky crystal ball seems to show. Last fiddled with by jwaltos on 2016-01-13 at 05:41

2016-01-13, 06:13	#14
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41×251 Posts	I was one of the optimists in the beginning, but now I don't see any win. We can hope for a win against a human, but not against a computer, there is no way we could win agains SF from this "dead" position. SF's biggest "luck", but his biggest "misfortune" too, was selecting this defense which is quite a know drawn. Which is good for us because we learned a lot - we never played this in real matches. But bad for us, because we can't win Joking apart, he could play a sicilian or something more dynamic, and more dramatic, and then we could have been winners or been dead already (most probably the last), or already immersed into endless arguments against each-other for the last 10 moves. SF would have laugh at us with all his diodes, as someone said. But this one opening is not very played, and quite drawish, so not so many branches to select from the databases we accessed, and not so many variants to argument right now. You see, we are for the first time in this forum's life, not even arguing against each other when we select the moves Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2016-01-13 at 06:16

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2016-01-13, 06:41	#15
Dubslow Basketry That Evening! "Bunslow the Bold" Jun 2011 40<A<43 -89<O<-88 1110000110101₂ Posts	I've seen draws like this turned into wins 30 moves later, and by pure (massive) skill on one side rather than misplays on the other. It's still out there. Stockfish is of course an incredibly formidable opponent.

2016-01-13, 10:30	#16
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	My preference currently goes to 16.Bxf6 on the grounds that Black's reply 16...gxf6 is absolutely forced (not 16...Ne3 17.Bxe7). Why invite any unpleasant surprises? Then we can play 17.Qd4. I actually consider the position rather double-edged and not the dead draw that some people are suggesting. Our plusses are Black's appalling pawn structure (the king-and-pawn ending would be a win for us) and Black's wide open castled king. Black on the other hand is likely to control the open e file and has a well placed knight causing us difficulties.

2016-01-15, 19:34	#17
gd_barnes "Gary" May 2007 Overland Park, KS 5×2,459 Posts	I agree that Bxf6 is somewhat better so as to not invite unpleasant surprises. It looks like it will come down to the wire on the poll. It's 3-3.

2016-01-15, 20:26	#18
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³·19 Posts	At the of this game would it be possible to see what SF considered to be our best move was.

2016-01-16, 03:45	#19
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	I have been closely following the game but have not participated since my attention has been sporadic due to work commitments. However at this point I'd like to give my two cents although I will not vote since I would feel like I'm butting in. I feel the two moves under consideration are pretty much a wash. Here is how I think the two lines would go for the next few moves: 16. Qd4 Qd6 17. Rab1 Rae8 18. Bxf6 gxf6 19. Qxa7 Ne3 20. Rf2 Nc4 or 16. Bxf6 gxf6 17. Qd4 Qb6 18. Rab1 Qe6 19. c3 Qf5 20. Qf2 Rae8

2016-01-16, 10:19	#20
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Good to see you involved too, Rich. While I obviously don't speak for anyone except myself, my understanding is that this game is between Stockfish (operated by MooMoo2) and potentially all members of mersenneforum.org. And I would say the more people who take part the better. So please do cast your vote if you have a preference between the lines you give. As far as I'm concerned, that goes for anyone else who has been watching the game but has so far not taken part.