Move 10 - Page 2

Brian-E · 2015-03-11, 16:14

[QUOTE=davar55;397451]Also consider getting more aggressive with ..Bb7 sometime soon.

I don't particularly like ..Bd4 for the reason you gave.
And ..a5 seems passive - what follows next?
And ..Nbd7 seems like a retreat.

What's their next move with each of these four move 10s?[/QUOTE]
Placing our bishop on b7 would be fine if they are going to play e5 at some point. But a likely plan for them, as pointed out by WMH earlier, is Nf3-d2-c4 and then f2-f3 with a pawn chain. In that case our bishop is "biting on granite" on b7. We could only make it meaningful there if we attacked the white pawn chain with ...f5, ...g5-g4, ...e6, and all of those moves create weaknesses, the first two weakening our castled king's position and the last one leaving us with a backward d-pawn on a half-open file if they respond dxe6. (We might have to play ...e6 anyway, though.)

Having said all that, 10...Bb7 is perhaps not a bad move. But I label it passive, not aggressive. Note that it blocks the b file down which we might hope to attack on the queenside.

The move ...a5, also pointed out by WMH, prepares ...Ba6.

The move ...Nbd7 is one of only two possible ways of developing our b8 knight, the other being via a6 after playing the move ...a5. That latter development is much less natural. I think the move ...Nbd7 is inevitable for us very shortly, and the main question to my mind is whether to play it now when it blocks our c8 bishop or to develop this bishop first.

WMHalsdorf · 2015-03-11, 22:38

The upside to 10... Nbd7 is that we are one step closer to clearing the back rank so that the rooks protect each other as well as protecting the e5 square. On reflection 10... Bg4 doesn't help all that much since white can still play Nd2 with Nc4 to follow after the exchange of bishops. This leaves 10... a5 which would be better left for later if they do decide to follow thru with Nd2.

Brian-E · 2015-03-11, 23:36

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;397501]The upside to 10... Nbd7 is that we are one step closer to clearing the back rank so that the rooks protect each other as well as protecting the e5 square. On reflection 10... Bg4 doesn't help all that much since white can still play Nd2 with Nc4 to follow after the exchange of bishops. This leaves 10... a5 which would be better left for later if they do decide to follow thru with Nd2.[/QUOTE]
Yes, we need to clear the back rank and connect the rooks as quickly as possible.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about 10...Bg4. The point is to exchange our bishop which is an awkward piece and clear the back rank. We can't actually prevent their manoeuvre Nf3-d2-c4 anyway.

WMHalsdorf · 2015-03-12, 13:52

While there is nothing we can do about the Nd2 sequence getting our c8 bishop to b5 is far more effective than exchanging it on e2 especially if the advance the pawn on the a file.

Brian-E · 2015-03-12, 23:10

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;397549]While there is nothing we can do about the Nd2 sequence getting our c8 bishop to b5 is far more effective than exchanging it on e2 especially if the advance the pawn on the a file.[/QUOTE]
Can you elaborate? I'm struggling to understand what you're getting at.

What path are you intending to take to b5? (Via d7, or via a6?) And why is that more effective? How would we avoid the exchange of light squared bishops then anyway (if we want to avoid it)?

WMHalsdorf · 2015-03-13, 08:38

The exchange of bishops on b5 would give us the option of capturing with the pawn on the a file if we go via d7. There is also the possibility of placing it on b7 putting pressure on the center squares if we play e6.

Brian-E · 2015-03-13, 11:03

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;397596]The exchange of bishops on b5 would give us the option of capturing with the pawn on the a file if we go via d7.[/QUOTE]
Only if they choose to exchange in that way. We can't make them do that, can we? Alternatively they could just play a4 after we have placed our bishop on b5, forcing us to retreat or exchange on e2 after all, and either way we have lost a lot of time with moves of this bishop. Or am I missing something?

[QUOTE]There is also the possibility of placing it on b7 putting pressure on the center squares if we play e6.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that was davar55's suggestion and I commented on it earlier. What do you think about that discussion?

WMHalsdorf · 2015-03-14, 00:06

If they don't play a4 followed by a5 then the bishop is better placed on b7 which makes the move Nbd7 the most practical of moves since it allows us to choose based on what they do next. The knight on d7 could end up c8 after moveing the rook to d8 making e6 even harder for white to deal with.

Brian-E · 2015-03-14, 09:15

Yes, I'm happy with the move 10...Nbd7 keeping the question of what to do with the c8 bishop flexible for now.

davar55, what do you think now?

davar55 · 2015-03-17, 02:12

I like the analysis. Nbd7 is fine with me as our next move,
leaving our next move options open and discussable after
they respond. BTW we've been good at predicting their
next moves, what're their best 11. (responses) ?

2015-03-11, 16:14	#12
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	[QUOTE=davar55;397451]Also consider getting more aggressive with ..Bb7 sometime soon. I don't particularly like ..Bd4 for the reason you gave. And ..a5 seems passive - what follows next? And ..Nbd7 seems like a retreat. What's their next move with each of these four move 10s?[/QUOTE] Placing our bishop on b7 would be fine if they are going to play e5 at some point. But a likely plan for them, as pointed out by WMH earlier, is Nf3-d2-c4 and then f2-f3 with a pawn chain. In that case our bishop is "biting on granite" on b7. We could only make it meaningful there if we attacked the white pawn chain with ...f5, ...g5-g4, ...e6, and all of those moves create weaknesses, the first two weakening our castled king's position and the last one leaving us with a backward d-pawn on a half-open file if they respond dxe6. (We might have to play ...e6 anyway, though.) Having said all that, 10...Bb7 is perhaps not a bad move. But I label it passive, not aggressive. Note that it blocks the b file down which we might hope to attack on the queenside. The move ...a5, also pointed out by WMH, prepares ...Ba6. The move ...Nbd7 is one of only two possible ways of developing our b8 knight, the other being via a6 after playing the move ...a5. That latter development is much less natural. I think the move ...Nbd7 is inevitable for us very shortly, and the main question to my mind is whether to play it now when it blocks our c8 bishop or to develop this bishop first. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2015-03-11 at 16:26 Reason: One extra comment

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2015-03-11, 22:38	#13
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	The upside to 10... Nbd7 is that we are one step closer to clearing the back rank so that the rooks protect each other as well as protecting the e5 square. On reflection 10... Bg4 doesn't help all that much since white can still play Nd2 with Nc4 to follow after the exchange of bishops. This leaves 10... a5 which would be better left for later if they do decide to follow thru with Nd2.

2015-03-11, 23:36	#14
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;397501]The upside to 10... Nbd7 is that we are one step closer to clearing the back rank so that the rooks protect each other as well as protecting the e5 square. On reflection 10... Bg4 doesn't help all that much since white can still play Nd2 with Nc4 to follow after the exchange of bishops. This leaves 10... a5 which would be better left for later if they do decide to follow thru with Nd2.[/QUOTE] Yes, we need to clear the back rank and connect the rooks as quickly as possible. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about 10...Bg4. The point is to exchange our bishop which is an awkward piece and clear the back rank. We can't actually prevent their manoeuvre Nf3-d2-c4 anyway.

2015-03-12, 13:52	#15
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 513₁₀ Posts	While there is nothing we can do about the Nd2 sequence getting our c8 bishop to b5 is far more effective than exchanging it on e2 especially if the advance the pawn on the a file.

2015-03-12, 23:10	#16
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;397549]While there is nothing we can do about the Nd2 sequence getting our c8 bishop to b5 is far more effective than exchanging it on e2 especially if the advance the pawn on the a file.[/QUOTE] Can you elaborate? I'm struggling to understand what you're getting at. What path are you intending to take to b5? (Via d7, or via a6?) And why is that more effective? How would we avoid the exchange of light squared bishops then anyway (if we want to avoid it)?

2015-03-13, 08:38	#17
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	The exchange of bishops on b5 would give us the option of capturing with the pawn on the a file if we go via d7. There is also the possibility of placing it on b7 putting pressure on the center squares if we play e6.

2015-03-13, 11:03	#18
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;397596]The exchange of bishops on b5 would give us the option of capturing with the pawn on the a file if we go via d7.[/QUOTE] Only if they choose to exchange in that way. We can't make them do that, can we? Alternatively they could just play a4 after we have placed our bishop on b5, forcing us to retreat or exchange on e2 after all, and either way we have lost a lot of time with moves of this bishop. Or am I missing something? [QUOTE]There is also the possibility of placing it on b7 putting pressure on the center squares if we play e6.[/QUOTE] Yes, that was davar55's suggestion and I commented on it earlier. What do you think about that discussion?

2015-03-14, 00:06	#19
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 1000000001₂ Posts	If they don't play a4 followed by a5 then the bishop is better placed on b7 which makes the move Nbd7 the most practical of moves since it allows us to choose based on what they do next. The knight on d7 could end up c8 after moveing the rook to d8 making e6 even harder for white to deal with.

2015-03-14, 09:15	#20
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	Yes, I'm happy with the move 10...Nbd7 keeping the question of what to do with the c8 bishop flexible for now. davar55, what do you think now?

2015-03-17, 02:12	#21
davar55 May 2004 New York City 5·7·11² Posts	I like the analysis. Nbd7 is fine with me as our next move, leaving our next move options open and discussable after they respond. BTW we've been good at predicting their next moves, what're their best 11. (responses) ?