White 11

cheesehead · 2013-10-03, 04:57

Our worthy opponents may be trying to disturb us with the rapidity of their last response. :wink:

Don't let them succeed.

I agree that our B/e3 has some value there, but still favor 11 Bd2.

If 11 Ne2, what if 11 ... c4 12 dXc4 Nxc4 ?

I think black's N/a5 has too much Q-side influence if left undisturbed. So I favor 11 Bd2 (and a c3 followup sometime after we've prevented a Black N-a5-b3 response).

I am NOT claiming that 11 Bd2 is so superior to any other move as to be a 5-1 voting preference ... but do tell me how to meet 11 ... c4 if we do anything else.

LaurV · 2013-10-03, 05:06

Honestly, I gave up that move already, after a lot of more thinking, my pick is 11.f4 - 5 points, and then 12.Nf3, 13.0-0, etc. (I told you I don't have many ideas, but they are fixed :smile:, I am dreaming since the beginning of the game to take out that horse, hehe)

Right now, they can do NOTHING with that horse, and sooner or later they have to retract it in either c6 or b7 (maybe to c6 and then to d4 is their best path). I would like a lot to make space for the horse in e3, but I don't understand why I should give up the very good position of the bishop (in fact, it was yours/WMH's suggestion, remember? and there was a very good move!) to scare a horse in a5 which is already so scared that is wet in its pants.... Let them play the big card queen-side, for now.

LaurV · 2013-10-03, 05:36

New post, to avoid being lost in the "edit":

If 11.f4, then 11...c4 would be a terrible move, they lose a pawn in the back (a7), need to run away with the rook, they lose the queen's flank and we still own all the center: 12. Bxa7 Rb7 13. Be3 cxd3 14. cxd3 Nb3 15. Ra2!

11...b4 is also bad, after a3xb4 he has to run with the horse and lose the other pawn too.

They don't have any threatening reply to f4+Nf3, their best would be retreat, Nc6, or advance the other horse, Ne7, Nf6, etc. We castle (well, not immediately, if they decide to develop the other horse, depends what they do).

WMHalsdorf · 2013-10-03, 19:03

As far as I can see there are only 2 moves for black on the queenside a7 (which I would play in most cases since it allows c4) and Nc6. Bd2 would give them the free move of Nc6 thus shifty black control to the center. This leaves as far as I can tell the moves Ne2, Nf3 and f4. I haven't decided which is better yet between Ne2 and f4 with Nf3 coming in 3rd place.

LaurV · 2013-10-04, 03:16

You are right about making Nf3 now, without f4 first. My opinion was also that Nf3 is worse than both (any of?) Ne2 and/or f4. That was my thinking too, when I picked f4, which indeed gives us more opportunity to develop behind of the pawns line. However, Nf3 makes a lot of sense [B][U]after[/U][/B] f4 (well, that depends on their move, but I don't expect them to move anything except the horse).

cheesehead · 2013-10-04, 03:17

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;355114]As far as I can see there are only 2 moves for black on the queenside a7 (which I would play in most cases since it allows c4)[/QUOTE]I presume you mean the RP advance a7-a6.

[quote]and Nc6. Bd2 would give them the free move of Nc6 thus shifty black control to the center.[/quote]Okay, upon further consideration I am persuaded to leave the B/e3 where it is, and use the tempo elsewhere.

[quote]This leaves as far as I can tell the moves Ne2, Nf3 and f4.[/quote]... and Rb1 or Ra2.

I note that f4 opens a possible future square for the N/d1 once the a1/a2/b1/b2 situation is cleaned up.

[quote]I haven't decided which is better yet between Ne2 and f4 with Nf3 coming in 3rd place.[/quote]Tentatively, my ranking is:

11 f4 --- 4
11 Ne2 -- 2
11 Rb1 -- 2
11 Nf3 -- 1
11 Ra2 -- 1

I'm not finished deciding, but that's my ranking unless I post again before deadline.

WMHalsdorf · 2013-10-04, 15:32

Currently I would rank the moves as such.

11 f4 --- 4
11 Rb1 -- 3
11 Ne2 -- 2
11 Ra2 -- 2
11 Nf3 -- 1

LaurV · 2013-10-04, 16:14

Hm, in fact Rb1 is not a bad move at all! I gave it some time, following the fact that both of you placed high in the rank. It is a very good move, it may be our twelfth (depends of black's move, but again, they will move that horse, most probably).

So. should we speed up with f4? Or wait till before the timeout? Any of you investing more time into analyzing the current move? (cheesehead, any "definitive" decision? In fact, after WMH's agreement, I think f4 is our definitive, and I really like this move now. Very strong, and offensive too.

WMHalsdorf · 2013-10-05, 05:37

Since f4 looks better and better to me I see no reason to wait.

cheesehead · 2013-10-06, 01:19

[OT]Observation:

(If either Black or we were to move a pawn to f5 next, the diagonal c2-h7 would be pawnful, with the maximal 6 pawns on the diagonal. I'm not sure I've ever seen that in a game. 7 pawns on a diagonal at the end of a move is impossible.)

2013-10-03, 04:57	#1
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 2²×3×641 Posts	White 11 Our worthy opponents may be trying to disturb us with the rapidity of their last response. :wink: Don't let them succeed. I agree that our B/e3 has some value there, but still favor 11 Bd2. If 11 Ne2, what if 11 ... c4 12 dXc4 Nxc4 ? I think black's N/a5 has too much Q-side influence if left undisturbed. So I favor 11 Bd2 (and a c3 followup sometime after we've prevented a Black N-a5-b3 response). I am NOT claiming that 11 Bd2 is so superior to any other move as to be a 5-1 voting preference ... but do tell me how to meet 11 ... c4 if we do anything else. Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-10-03 at 05:03

2013-10-03, 05:06	#2
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41·251 Posts	Honestly, I gave up that move already, after a lot of more thinking, my pick is 11.f4 - 5 points, and then 12.Nf3, 13.0-0, etc. (I told you I don't have many ideas, but they are fixed :smile:, I am dreaming since the beginning of the game to take out that horse, hehe) Right now, they can do NOTHING with that horse, and sooner or later they have to retract it in either c6 or b7 (maybe to c6 and then to d4 is their best path). I would like a lot to make space for the horse in e3, but I don't understand why I should give up the very good position of the bishop (in fact, it was yours/WMH's suggestion, remember? and there was a very good move!) to scare a horse in a5 which is already so scared that is wet in its pants.... Let them play the big card queen-side, for now. Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-10-03 at 05:13 Reason: s/to b4/to d4/, typo, there is where the battle is and where our bishop needs to watch

2013-10-04, 03:16	#5
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 10100000110011₂ Posts	You are right about making Nf3 now, without f4 first. My opinion was also that Nf3 is worse than both (any of?) Ne2 and/or f4. That was my thinking too, when I picked f4, which indeed gives us more opportunity to develop behind of the pawns line. However, Nf3 makes a lot of sense [B][U]after[/U][/B] f4 (well, that depends on their move, but I don't expect them to move anything except the horse). Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-10-04 at 03:16

2013-10-04, 03:17	#6
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 7692₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;355114]As far as I can see there are only 2 moves for black on the queenside a7 (which I would play in most cases since it allows c4)[/QUOTE]I presume you mean the RP advance a7-a6. [quote]and Nc6. Bd2 would give them the free move of Nc6 thus shifty black control to the center.[/quote]Okay, upon further consideration I am persuaded to leave the B/e3 where it is, and use the tempo elsewhere. [quote]This leaves as far as I can tell the moves Ne2, Nf3 and f4.[/quote]... and Rb1 or Ra2. I note that f4 opens a possible future square for the N/d1 once the a1/a2/b1/b2 situation is cleaned up. [quote]I haven't decided which is better yet between Ne2 and f4 with Nf3 coming in 3rd place.[/quote]Tentatively, my ranking is: 11 f4 --- 4 11 Ne2 -- 2 11 Rb1 -- 2 11 Nf3 -- 1 11 Ra2 -- 1 I'm not finished deciding, but that's my ranking unless I post again before deadline. Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2013-10-04 at 03:36

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2013-10-03, 05:36	#3
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41·251 Posts	New post, to avoid being lost in the "edit": If 11.f4, then 11...c4 would be a terrible move, they lose a pawn in the back (a7), need to run away with the rook, they lose the queen's flank and we still own all the center: 12. Bxa7 Rb7 13. Be3 cxd3 14. cxd3 Nb3 15. Ra2! 11...b4 is also bad, after a3xb4 he has to run with the horse and lose the other pawn too. They don't have any threatening reply to f4+Nf3, their best would be retreat, Nc6, or advance the other horse, Ne7, Nf6, etc. We castle (well, not immediately, if they decide to develop the other horse, depends what they do).

2013-10-03, 19:03	#4
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 1000000001₂ Posts	As far as I can see there are only 2 moves for black on the queenside a7 (which I would play in most cases since it allows c4) and Nc6. Bd2 would give them the free move of Nc6 thus shifty black control to the center. This leaves as far as I can tell the moves Ne2, Nf3 and f4. I haven't decided which is better yet between Ne2 and f4 with Nf3 coming in 3rd place.

2013-10-04, 15:32	#7
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	Currently I would rank the moves as such. 11 f4 --- 4 11 Rb1 -- 3 11 Ne2 -- 2 11 Ra2 -- 2 11 Nf3 -- 1

2013-10-04, 16:14	#8
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41×251 Posts	Hm, in fact Rb1 is not a bad move at all! I gave it some time, following the fact that both of you placed high in the rank. It is a very good move, it may be our twelfth (depends of black's move, but again, they will move that horse, most probably). So. should we speed up with f4? Or wait till before the timeout? Any of you investing more time into analyzing the current move? (cheesehead, any "definitive" decision? In fact, after WMH's agreement, I think f4 is our definitive, and I really like this move now. Very strong, and offensive too.

2013-10-05, 05:37	#9
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 201₁₆ Posts	Since f4 looks better and better to me I see no reason to wait.

2013-10-06, 01:19	#10
cheesehead "Richard B. Woods" Aug 2002 Wisconsin USA 1111000001100₂ Posts	[OT]Observation: (If either Black or we were to move a pawn to f5 next, the diagonal c2-h7 would be pawnful, with the maximal 6 pawns on the diagonal. I'm not sure I've ever seen that in a game. 7 pawns on a diagonal at the end of a move is impossible.)