Move 8

richs · 2013-09-10, 04:18

Well, I didn't expect Nd1. That move loses momentum for White since it is a backwards movement of an already-moved piece in the opening. It seems a defensive move in my opinion. Interesting....

My first thought is b5 but I want to think more.... :smile:

paulunderwood · 2013-09-10, 04:33

At first glance it opens up white's queen and allows pawn to c3. Let's do some deep thinking before we decide on our reply. :smile:

henryzz · 2013-09-10, 08:07

b5 looks like a nice move to me. Their knight on d1 looks a bit trapped after we do b4. That would also allow moves like e5(they have no access to d5).
Again I will need a bit more thought. Why do I always end up posting as I am about to go out?

Brian-E · 2013-09-10, 13:16

To my mind, the surprising feature of their move 8.Nd1 is that they have played it before waiting to see if we would play ...Nd4. Their move sequence Nd1 and c3 is normally played after Black has moved ...Nd4 in this opening when it would cost us a tempo because the knight on d4 would then have to move again. But now we can avoid ...Nd4 entirely and we have gained time on the more usual lines.

8...b5 does indeed seem possible and good now. If we don't play it immediately they could conceivably play 9.a4 hindering it. However, we can also play a less committal move if we want to see more of what they are intending first (though I do agree with Paul that they are almost certainly intending c3). A developing move which protects the knight on c6 might be good since the knight will be unprotected if and when we move the b pawn: 8...Qc7 or 8...Bd7 (or 8...Nge7 but it can be answered by 9.Bh6 as we discussed last move).

henryzz · 2013-09-11, 14:15

I quite like the look of 8...e5 now he has moved his knight from c3. The only way for him to exploit the weakness on d5 would be to undo his last move 9.Nc3. We can reply 9...Nge7 10.Nd5 Nxg5 11.exd5
What we do then is upto discussion as Ne7 is possible but I would suggest. 11...Nd4 12.c3(blocking his queen in. I also imagine he would want c4 at some point to join up his pawns. It is defended by the bishop though) Nf5(attacking his bishop)
Assuming he doesn't want to exchange our knight for his bishop at this point he must do 13.Bg5. We reply 13...f6 and he has no choice but to move his bishop back to 14.Be3 allowing the exchange 14...Nxe3 (fQ)xe3
In this position it seems to me that we have more space and more oportunities for attack than white. He has a doubled pawn which it blocking the diagonal from his remaining bishop doing anything useful. If we can put our bishop pair to good use that should give us some advantage. We have also removed some material from the board that would normally be used by white in attacking on the kingside. This should make our life easier.
I have looked a bit deep and there might be escapes for white but I think the d5 square would be still pretty blocked off for white after 8...e5.
Following e5 I think their best responses are probably Ne2 or c3 although Ne2 doesn't leave much useful they can do with that knight other than Nc3 as we have blocked f4.

Brian-E · 2013-09-11, 15:42

I would expect 9.f4 in response to 8...e5. Then would follow it up up quietly with Nf3, O-O, and prospects of a kingside attack. There is no need for them to try to exploit the hole on d5 with their knight immediately in my opinion.

The move ...e5 may be a good one for us at some point, but it is very committal and changes the position radically. We then have fewer prospects on the queenside because we have blocked our powerful g7 bishop. I am not keen on playing it right now because it reduces our options.

paulunderwood · 2013-09-11, 19:29

One line I have looked at is 8...h5 9. h4 Nh3 10. f3... but this does not have much advantage and is looking ahead quite a bit.

I like 8...b5 too, gaining more queen's side dominance :smile:

richs · 2013-09-12, 17:49

I've looked further and I'm in favor of b5. As Brian noted, their Nd1 move sets them back and allows us to develop queenside.

Brian-E · 2013-09-12, 19:06

I too favour 8...b5 the most from our possible moves.

henryzz · 2013-09-12, 19:24

b5 is my favorite as well. I will post tomorrow unless there are objections. We are getting more to the point where we need to slow down our thinking.

2013-09-10, 04:18	#1
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	Move 8 Well, I didn't expect Nd1. That move loses momentum for White since it is a backwards movement of an already-moved piece in the opening. It seems a defensive move in my opinion. Interesting.... My first thought is b5 but I want to think more.... :smile:

2013-09-12, 19:24	#10
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	b5 is my favorite as well. I will post tomorrow unless there are objections. We are getting more to the point where we need to slow down our thinking. Last fiddled with by henryzz on 2013-09-12 at 19:25

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2013-09-10, 04:33	#2
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 124D₁₆ Posts	At first glance it opens up white's queen and allows pawn to c3. Let's do some deep thinking before we decide on our reply. :smile:

2013-09-10, 08:07	#3
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	b5 looks like a nice move to me. Their knight on d1 looks a bit trapped after we do b4. That would also allow moves like e5(they have no access to d5). Again I will need a bit more thought. Why do I always end up posting as I am about to go out?

2013-09-10, 13:16	#4
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	To my mind, the surprising feature of their move 8.Nd1 is that they have played it before waiting to see if we would play ...Nd4. Their move sequence Nd1 and c3 is normally played after Black has moved ...Nd4 in this opening when it would cost us a tempo because the knight on d4 would then have to move again. But now we can avoid ...Nd4 entirely and we have gained time on the more usual lines. 8...b5 does indeed seem possible and good now. If we don't play it immediately they could conceivably play 9.a4 hindering it. However, we can also play a less committal move if we want to see more of what they are intending first (though I do agree with Paul that they are almost certainly intending c3). A developing move which protects the knight on c6 might be good since the knight will be unprotected if and when we move the b pawn: 8...Qc7 or 8...Bd7 (or 8...Nge7 but it can be answered by 9.Bh6 as we discussed last move).

2013-09-11, 14:15	#5
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 17FD₁₆ Posts	I quite like the look of 8...e5 now he has moved his knight from c3. The only way for him to exploit the weakness on d5 would be to undo his last move 9.Nc3. We can reply 9...Nge7 10.Nd5 Nxg5 11.exd5 What we do then is upto discussion as Ne7 is possible but I would suggest. 11...Nd4 12.c3(blocking his queen in. I also imagine he would want c4 at some point to join up his pawns. It is defended by the bishop though) Nf5(attacking his bishop) Assuming he doesn't want to exchange our knight for his bishop at this point he must do 13.Bg5. We reply 13...f6 and he has no choice but to move his bishop back to 14.Be3 allowing the exchange 14...Nxe3 (fQ)xe3 In this position it seems to me that we have more space and more oportunities for attack than white. He has a doubled pawn which it blocking the diagonal from his remaining bishop doing anything useful. If we can put our bishop pair to good use that should give us some advantage. We have also removed some material from the board that would normally be used by white in attacking on the kingside. This should make our life easier. I have looked a bit deep and there might be escapes for white but I think the d5 square would be still pretty blocked off for white after 8...e5. Following e5 I think their best responses are probably Ne2 or c3 although Ne2 doesn't leave much useful they can do with that knight other than Nc3 as we have blocked f4.

2013-09-11, 15:42	#6
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	I would expect 9.f4 in response to 8...e5. Then would follow it up up quietly with Nf3, O-O, and prospects of a kingside attack. There is no need for them to try to exploit the hole on d5 with their knight immediately in my opinion. The move ...e5 may be a good one for us at some point, but it is very committal and changes the position radically. We then have fewer prospects on the queenside because we have blocked our powerful g7 bishop. I am not keen on playing it right now because it reduces our options.

2013-09-11, 19:29	#7
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 124D₁₆ Posts	One line I have looked at is 8...h5 9. h4 Nh3 10. f3... but this does not have much advantage and is looking ahead quite a bit. I like 8...b5 too, gaining more queen's side dominance :smile:

2013-09-12, 17:49	#8
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	I've looked further and I'm in favor of b5. As Brian noted, their Nd1 move sets them back and allows us to develop queenside.

2013-09-12, 19:06	#9
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	I too favour 8...b5 the most from our possible moves.