The ultimate answer to life, rape, pregnancies, chemistry and everything

[Brian-E]

Glad to see the change to the thread title. It encourages me to jump back to this particular tangent for a moment, which can safely be ignored by those more interested in chemo-orgasmo linguistics and legitimate rape:

Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux

And as disgusting as that man's words were, they do not even compare with this other politician's actions. Yet, I doubt it will get close to the same response.

Thanks to both only_human and Zeta-Flux for answering my queries about why this lawmaker's hot date at the rest area is so unacceptable to American society.

I'd just like to say that I think it illustrates a cultural difference. In much of Western Europe there is a clear line drawn between behaviour by people in function (however public that function may be) and their private lives. What happens in private is certainly expected to be consenting by all parties and legal. If it isn't, then a politician or other public figure can expect serious problems, more so than general members of the public. But I don't think this lawmaker's actions would have been condemned here or even made public at all. The sex-in-public-place aspect, which is illegal here too, might have presented a problem: but if the parties had made a serious effort to hide themselves from public view then it is unlikely that any action would have been taken by a police officer discovering them other than issuing a warning and request to take it somewhere private.

Yes, Zeta-Flux, I too think that public figures should set an example. But our ideas of what setting a good example means probably differ substantially on the issues which this case brings up.

[ewmayer]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

I'd just like to say that I think it illustrates a cultural difference. In much of Western Europe there is a clear line drawn between behaviour by people in function (however public that function may be) and their private lives. What happens in private is certainly expected to be consenting by all parties and legal. If it isn't, then a politician or other public figure can expect serious problems, more so than general members of the public. But I don't think this lawmaker's actions would have been condemned here or even made public at all.

If he wanted his hot date to be treated as part of his private life, perhaps he shouldn't be having sex in a public place. If you're doing something in a known public place, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. If I wave my shlong around while in the shower to keep time with some song on the radio, that's my business. If I do it in public, I will likely get arrested, and have no grounds to expect otherwise.

And all this is completely aside from the fact that the boy in question, while above (barely) the age of consent, was a legal minor, which makes he act morally quite close to pederasty in many people's minds. Also notice the following quite interesting legal caveat related to age of consent in Minnesota:

The age of consent in Minnesota is 16.

If the actor is in a position of authority, the age of consent is 18. If the victim is under the age of 13 the actor must be no more than 36 months older. If the victim is 13, 14 or 15 the actor must be no more than 48 months older. The specifics of these laws are covered under Sections 609.34x of the Minnesota Criminal Code. Specifically sections 609.341 Definitions, 609.342 Criminal Sexual Conduct in the First Degree, 609.343 Criminal Sexual Conduct in the Second Degree, 609.344 Criminal Sexual Conduct in the Third Degree, 609.345 Criminal Sexual Conduct in the Fourth Degree, 609.3451 Criminal Sexual Conduct in the Fifth Degree, and 609.349 Voluntary Relationships.[71]

If I read that right, the politician might be charged with a crime on that basis, despite the Fox News article saying "authorities said he wouldn't be because the boy was older than 16, the legal age of consent, and no money was exchanged".

Lastly, I think most reasonable people in both American and Europe would at least consider the pol's actions to constitute horrendously poor judgment. So why is it unreasonable to assume that a person displaying such poor judgment in their personal life might also be more likely to show poor judgment in public matters? Are personal integrity and judgment attributes which one simply dons when heading to work and doffs at the end of the day, like a business suit?

[fivemack]

Originally Posted by ewmayer

Lastly, I think most reasonable people in both American and Europe would at least consider the pol's actions to constitute horrendously poor judgment. So why is it unreasonable to assume that a person displaying such poor judgment in their personal life might also be more likely to show poor judgment in public matters? Are personal integrity and judgment attributes which one simply dons when heading to work and doffs at the end of the day, like a business suit?

People with awesomely effective public lives and fairly unfortunate private lives are nine for sevenpence - let's start with that well-known alcoholic depressive Winston Churchill and proceed to the extremely effective and enthusiastically sexual US Presidents Kennedy and Clinton.

So I am inclined to say 'yes, it is perfectly possible to be an effective and honourable politician with a taste for downmarket sex'.

I think you're trying to pull a slightly quick one by conflating judgment and integrity here.

[ewmayer]

Originally Posted by fivemack

People with awesomely effective public lives and fairly unfortunate private lives are nine for sevenpence - let's start with that well-known alcoholic depressive Winston Churchill and proceed to the extremely effective and enthusiastically sexual US Presidents Kennedy and Clinton.

Fair enough - But the key question remains, are folks like that the exception or the rule?

Also, while the 60s-era press gave Kennedy a free pass as was customary at the time, Clinton knew that times had changed, went ahead anyway, and suffered at least several months' worth of needless distraction as a result. In other words, however "extremely effective" he may have been normally, his job performance suffered materially due to his poor judgment in this "private matter". I would also argue that a strong case can be made that the lingering aftereffects of the Lewinsky scandal hurt Clinton VP Al Gore in his own bid for the presidency in 2000.

But I'll be interested to hear the opinions of a wider swath of the readership on this issue.

[Zeta-Flux]

fivemack,

So I am inclined to say 'yes, it is perfectly possible to be an effective and honourable politician with a taste for downmarket sex'.

I think you're trying to pull a slightly quick one by conflating judgment and integrity here.

You may be doing the same thing above with the use of the word honourable. Effective, yes. Honourable, no.

-------------------

Brian-E,

Yes, I think you are right that much of it is a culture thing. For example, I don't know many Americans who would consider asking online for a random public sexual partner as a "hot date". I'll leave it to your imagination what words we might use.

I'd also like to ditto ewmayer's comment that "I think most reasonable people in both American and Europe would at least consider the pol's actions to constitute horrendously poor judgment." In terms of public policy, many of the issues that our politicians deal with are related to laws concerning youth. Would you want this man writing laws related to lowering the age of consent? Would you want a politician who secretly wanted to lower the age, but hypocritically hid that desire to appear more mainstream and less judgement-error-prone? (In other words, this man's private actions have bearing on his public policy positions--unless he is a hypocrite.)

[Dubslow]

Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux

Yes, I think you are right that much of it is a culture thing. For example, I don't know many Americans who would consider asking online for a random public sexual partner as a "hot date". I'll leave it to your imagination what words we might use.

I think for many people (thinking mostly of the people I know), "desperate" is the word that comes to mind. If you need sex so bad you advertise on Craigslist, you're doing something wrong.

Edit: Here's a vaguely related depressing anecdote from viedemerde.fr: "Aujourd'hui, cela fait un moment que je n'ai pas eu de relation avec un homme, ce qui déclenche en moi de multiples fantasmes. Domination, partenaires multiples, striptease… Ce soir, à ma grande surprise, j'ai été excitée en regardant une vache brouter. Je voulais être l'herbe. VDM"

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by Dubslow

Edit: Here's a vaguely related depressing anecdote from viedemerde.fr: "Aujourd'hui, cela fait un moment que je n'ai pas eu de relation avec un homme, ce qui déclenche en moi de multiples fantasmes. Domination, partenaires multiples, striptease… Ce soir, à ma grande surprise, j'ai été excitée en regardant une vache brouter. Je voulais être l'herbe. VDM"

Is there any particular reason why you find this fantasy depressing? I thought almost everyone has sexual fantasies which bear no relation to the reality of their own sex lives and often, as with this fantasy of being the grass eaten by a cow, have no basis in any kind of reality. The only aspect which I find unusual is the writer's frankness in describing his or her particular fantasy, because for most people it is a taboo subject.

[Dubslow]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Is there any particular reason why you find this fantasy depressing? I thought almost everyone has sexual fantasies which bear no relation to the reality of their own sex lives and often, as with this fantasy of being the grass eaten by a cow, have no basis in any kind of reality. The only aspect which I find unusual is the writer's frankness in describing his or her particular fantasy, because for most people it is a taboo subject.

Depressing in the sense of "if I found myself in that position, I'd probably be at least a little depressed at having gotten that crazy". Certainly if the author is posting such a thing on a website called "shitty life", I'd imagine she (he?) is at least a bit depressed too.

(Aside: I had no idea "striptease" isn't translated in French...)

[Xyzzy]

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[Brian-E]

Neither being eaten by a cow nor seeing long red hair statically charged are any more "crazy" than my own particular dominant fantasy. (Which, by the way, I keep strictly to myself. No picture will be forthcoming!) But I'm not depressed about it.

[Batalov]

Originally Posted by Dubslow

Depressing in the sense of "if I found myself in that position, I'd probably be at least a little depressed at having gotten that crazy". ...

Bob Flanagan would disagree. (The documentary about his last year of life should not be watched by anyone sane. You've been warned. One has to be truly disturbingly open minded to accept his philosophy about things you could possibly do when you know that you have, say, a year to live.)

You seem to have been toying with the idea of a bucket list. Bob's bucket list was highly unusual.