Internalization - Page 3

Dubslow · 2012-05-07, 05:51

For some of the ones I did, I marked problem areas and added comments. I specifically remember one was "add translation" which also depends on context. For this reason and LaurV's reasons, chalsall, it's probably better if the changes aren't made live so they can be reviewed for context etc.

(Btw, for units: http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz: "Hertzul, în limba română scris și herț,...", but of course the abbreviation is the same. GHz-Jours isn't too silly, if we're translating everything

)

LaurV · 2012-05-07, 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dubslow

GHz-Jours isn't too silly, if we're translating everything

)

Exactly! GHz-Zile sounds quite stupid for me (my mind is modified from too much internet surfing, but I believe a Romanian linguist would agree with me).

Also, the languages are - depending on context - non-transaltable.

How could I translate "Dutch"? Or "French"?

Beside of the fact that Dutch/German/French/etc, could be translated in 10 different ways, if it refers to the language, persons (male? female?), places (known? generic?), I REALLY HATE when I find menus "Select language:" followed by "English/German/French/Romanian/Chinese" etc.

They would read "English/Deutsch/Francaise/Româneşte/中国语文". It is totally impolite to translate the desired language in the language of the web page. Why should I - a stupid Romanian - know how to say "Româneşte" in English???

Imagine you visit a Chinese page and you see a big menu saying:

请选择语言：

英语
德语
法语
罗马尼亚语
中国语文

What do you do then?? There is the same as visiting an English page and the language names are written in English. Big guys never do this! (this is just an example, no advertizing! :P)

That Chinese page, to be useful and polite to the reader, it should normally read like :

请选择语言：(Please select language):

English
Deutsch
Français
Româneşte
中国语文

Keep the language name in the language of the poor guy who is looking for it. The version:

请选择语言：(Please select language):

English
German
French
Romanian
中国语文

is still ok, but quite impolite for German/French/Romanian speakers, or may be unuseful for some of them who do not know how their language is called in English.

cheesehead · 2012-05-07, 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurV

I REALLY HATE when I find menus "Select language:" followed by "English/German/French/Romanian/Chinese" etc.

They would read "English/Deutsch/Francaise/Româneşte/中国语文". It is totally impolite to translate the desired language in the language of the web page. Why should I - a stupid Romanian - know how to say "Româneşte" in English???

Imagine you visit a Chinese page and you see a big menu saying:

请选择语言：

英语
德语
法语
罗马尼亚语
中国语文

What do you do then?? There is the same as visiting an English page and the language names are written in English. Big guys never do this! (this is just an example, no advertizing! :P)

That Chinese page, to be useful and polite to the reader, it should normally read like :

请选择语言：(Please select language):

English
Deutsch
Français
Româneşte
中国语文

Keep the language name in the language of the poor guy who is looking for it.

Good points!!

Brian-E · 2012-05-07, 11:02

Yes, as others have also pointed out, the context is very important when you are translating.

I've just come across the phrase "DC Trial Factoring Work" to be translated and this looks to me suspiciously like multiple items combined into one, possibly separate words in a heading or something. Very difficult to translate if you're not sure what it is to be used for.

Would it be possible to display, each time an English phrase is offered for translation, a link to the point on the site where that phrase is used?

chalsall · 2012-05-07, 14:35

I want to thank everyone for your comments above, and the translations already submitted.

I was, and am, aware that this is actually a very difficult problem. Context is just one. And this whole experiment/project was to build a system which could handle all such situations as well as possible; what exists now is just the first step.

With regards to context, I'm working on a sub-sub-system which will list all the pages where a word or phrase is used. And another which will let people click on a phrase and taken to the translation submission page for that phrase.

With regards to editing already entered translations (either your own or someone elses), that is in the plans and the data definitions are designed for it.

Another issue which I"d appreciate feedback on is strings which are built by the system depending on the query type. Something like "View assignments for ${Name}" is easy. But what about something like "Trial Factored Depth per Day in the ${Range} Range in the last ${Period}"? $Range is either "LL" or "DC", and $Period can be "Week", "Month" or "Quarter". Can I rely on every language being able to simply do substitutions for those words, or in some languages would the phrase change further depending on the $Period word?

And an even more complex example: the "Workers Progress" report. Its string is currently rendered as "Workers' ${WorkType} Progress${SortedBy}", with $WorkType being "Overall", "DC Trial Factoring", "LL Trial Factoring", "P-1 Factoring", "Double Check Testing" or "Lucas-Lehmer Testing", and $SortedBy being blank (""), or "sorted by " followed by "Worker", "Number of Assignments", "Factored to ${Number} bits", "Factored to more than 73 bits", "Factors Found" or "GHz Days Saved".

A total number of unique strings of 35! Too many to translate individually, but generated algorithmically possibly incorrect for some languages.

I doubt we'll ever achieve absolute perfection, but I'm finding it is an interesting exercise. I like difficult problems!!!

Please keep submitting translations as you all feel is appropriate, knowing that being able to correct mistakes (including context) is coming soon.

chalsall · 2012-05-07, 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurV

That Chinese page, to be useful and polite to the reader, it should normally read like :

请选择语言：(Please select language):

English
Deutsch
Français
Româneşte
中国语文

Keep the language name in the language of the poor guy who is looking for it.

Yes, I agree. And that's why I'm asking people to translate the language names as well -- for exactly this purpose when I have the language selection option available which overrides what the browser says the user prefers.

chalsall · 2012-05-07, 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dubslow

For this reason and LaurV's reasons, chalsall, it's probably better if the changes aren't made live so they can be reviewed for context etc.

The going "live" immediately is temporary. The system is designed such that in the near future translations will pass through a review / heuristic analysis before appearing "live".

chalsall · 2012-05-07, 21:50

Hey all.

OK, I've added what I hope will help with the translating... The Translation Area now lists words and phrases which have not been translated (as before) sorted by the number of times they've been used (new).

When someone clicks on a phrase to be translated, the page shows which page(s) the phrase appears on so reference to context is easier.

A "Suggest Alternative Translation" function is underway.

sonjohan · 2012-05-09, 05:47

I'll check for dutch & french, if I can get the darn thing to switch to french...

I guess you need to keep the text in approx. the same length?
So don't translate 3 words into a complete sentence?

How do I correct typoz? (kort per gevonden deler --> kost per gevonden deler (maybe 'factor' is better than 'deler'))

chalsall · 2012-05-09, 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonjohan

I'll check for dutch & french, if I can get the darn thing to switch to french...

Cool. Thanks. We really need assistance with the French.

And it should be a simple matter of a setting in the Preferences wrt Language. I'm currently flipping between English, Russian, German, Dutch, Romanian and French with just a few clicks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonjohan

I guess you need to keep the text in approx. the same length? So don't translate 3 words into a complete sentence?

Correct.

BigBrother · 2012-05-09, 06:32

Is there some way to change the language? I prefer the original English texts.

2012-05-07, 14:35	#27
chalsall If I May "Chris Halsall" Sep 2002 Barbados 23002₈ Posts	Thanks for the comments and translations. I want to thank everyone for your comments above, and the translations already submitted. I was, and am, aware that this is actually a very difficult problem. Context is just one. And this whole experiment/project was to build a system which could handle all such situations as well as possible; what exists now is just the first step. With regards to context, I'm working on a sub-sub-system which will list all the pages where a word or phrase is used. And another which will let people click on a phrase and taken to the translation submission page for that phrase. With regards to editing already entered translations (either your own or someone elses), that is in the plans and the data definitions are designed for it. Another issue which I"d appreciate feedback on is strings which are built by the system depending on the query type. Something like "View assignments for ${Name}" is easy. But what about something like "Trial Factored Depth per Day in the ${Range} Range in the last ${Period}"? $Range is either "LL" or "DC", and $Period can be "Week", "Month" or "Quarter". Can I rely on every language being able to simply do substitutions for those words, or in some languages would the phrase change further depending on the $Period word? And an even more complex example: the "Workers Progress" report. Its string is currently rendered as "Workers' ${WorkType} Progress${SortedBy}", with $WorkType being "Overall", "DC Trial Factoring", "LL Trial Factoring", "P-1 Factoring", "Double Check Testing" or "Lucas-Lehmer Testing", and $SortedBy being blank (""), or "sorted by " followed by "Worker", "Number of Assignments", "Factored to ${Number} bits", "Factored to more than 73 bits", "Factors Found" or "GHz Days Saved". A total number of unique strings of 35! Too many to translate individually, but generated algorithmically possibly incorrect for some languages. I doubt we'll ever achieve absolute perfection, but I'm finding it is an interesting exercise. I like difficult problems!!! Please keep submitting translations as you all feel is appropriate, knowing that being able to correct mistakes (including context) is coming soon. Last fiddled with by chalsall on 2012-05-09 at 13:21 Reason: s/and $Range can be/and $Period can be/

2012-05-09, 05:47	#31
sonjohan May 2003 Belgium 2·139 Posts	I'll check for dutch & french, if I can get the darn thing to switch to french... I guess you need to keep the text in approx. the same length? So don't translate 3 words into a complete sentence? How do I correct typoz? (kort per gevonden deler --> kost per gevonden deler (maybe 'factor' is better than 'deler')) Last fiddled with by sonjohan on 2012-05-09 at 06:00

2012-05-07, 05:51	#23
Dubslow Basketry That Evening! "Bunslow the Bold" Jun 2011 40<A<43 -89<O<-88 3×29×83 Posts	For some of the ones I did, I marked problem areas and added comments. I specifically remember one was "add translation" which also depends on context. For this reason and LaurV's reasons, chalsall, it's probably better if the changes aren't made live so they can be reviewed for context etc. (Btw, for units: http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz: "Hertzul, în limba română scris și herț,...", but of course the abbreviation is the same. GHz-Jours isn't too silly, if we're translating everything )

2012-05-07, 11:02	#26
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 7×467 Posts	Yes, as others have also pointed out, the context is very important when you are translating. I've just come across the phrase "DC Trial Factoring Work" to be translated and this looks to me suspiciously like multiple items combined into one, possibly separate words in a heading or something. Very difficult to translate if you're not sure what it is to be used for. Would it be possible to display, each time an English phrase is offered for translation, a link to the point on the site where that phrase is used?

2012-05-07, 21:50	#30
chalsall If I May "Chris Halsall" Sep 2002 Barbados 2·5·7·139 Posts	Hey all. OK, I've added what I hope will help with the translating... The Translation Area now lists words and phrases which have not been translated (as before) sorted by the number of times they've been used (new). When someone clicks on a phrase to be translated, the page shows which page(s) the phrase appears on so reference to context is easier. A "Suggest Alternative Translation" function is underway.

2012-05-09, 06:32	#33
BigBrother Feb 2005 The Netherlands 2×109 Posts	Is there some way to change the language? I prefer the original English texts.