RDS's unique pedagogic ways

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

Yet another illustration of what I have been saying. People need to
do some background reading before opening their mouths.

The first question that should have been asked is: "Where can I learn
about how NFS works?", BEFORE asking any other question.

But some people never learn. And some refuse to learn.

if you really want it to change at least in the US you could try:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by fivemack

As for Toom, presumably you mean

http://michel.delord.free.fr/toom_russ.html

It's the complaint of a man who had been an elite teacher of well-selected elites in the Soviet Union having suddenly to teach people who weren't interested in learning for its own sake, in a culture where having that attitude was accepted in a way that it wasn't among the Moscow intelligentsia.

It's definitely saddening, but I agree with Toom's claim that it's a side-effect of declaring that everybody should go through tertiary education.

The view that Toom was an elite teacher of elites is not shared by others that I have talked to:

Here is an exerpt from someone commenting on the Toom article.

"Please inform Mr. Toom about the grading
system and instruction methods of THIS
country.:..I earned a grade ofA in my
college algebra and trigonometry courses
so it makes no sense for me to be doing so
poorly in this course. Please straighten this
man out. This note from a student in "business
calculus" was part of Andrei Toom's
introduction to the customs and ways of
American colleges and college students."

In other words because the student got A in remedial courses,
he expected to get an A when he took real college math (Calculus).
--> A false sense of entitlement.

"Toom, a Russian mathematician who had come
to live in this country, had a lot to learn. He
describes the process in "A Russian Teacher in
America" (Journal of Mathematical Behavior,
v. 12,pages 117-139).
Toom took it for granted that his job was to
teach his students to be flexible, independent
thinkers who could look at a problem they had
not met before and figure out how to deal with it."

What a SHOCK!

"He was amazed to find that most of them were
more interested in his grading scheme-how
much their homework and quizzes and tests
would count towards their grade and what kinds
of problems would be on the fmal-than in what
they'd be learning. In fact, their goal seemed to
be to learn as little as possible-as long as the
grade was right "Their first priority~"Toom found,
"was to get papers that certify that they are competent
rather than to develop real competence."
This attitude seemed to Toom like an odd
perversion of market principles: ."

Yep. And I see the admins in this group furthering this view: The
culture here is "get credit for superficial work", rather than "develop
real competence". By referring to my efforts as "trying to teach pigs
to sing", it is clear that they are acting as enablers for those "pigs"
by saying that it is more important to have "harmony" than to promote
competence.

".,Most of them were more interested
in his grading schemehow much their homework and
quizzes and tests would count
and what kinds of problems would be
on thefmalIt is the basic principle of the market that
everybody tries to get as much as possible
and to pay as little as possible.There is
nothing wrong with this: When I buy something, I try to save
money,and everybody does the same. What is wrong is that some
students apply the same rule to learning: They seem to think that
they BUYgrades and PAYfor them by learning. And they try to
PAYas little as possible! In other words, some students see~ to
think that it is a loss whenever they learn something After every
test I explained correct solutions. Many a student said: "Now I
. understand."I wasglad:Thepurposeofmyteachingwasachieved.
But some said it with regret, which meant: "This understanding is
useless because it 'tame too late to provide me a good grade."
. Toom was also sUrR.risedto find out that the students' notion of
college education as a mere credential was not frowned on by the faculty'
and administration. Administrators went along with students' demands
for good grades."

Here the admins are going along with the "pigs" desire for "credit"
without putting in the effort.

[fivemack]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

In other words because the student got A in remedial courses, he expected to get an A when he took real college math (Calculus). --> A false sense of entitlement.

That's been the classic problem with people entering the second and third levels of multi-level selective systems; it is peculiar, and I might well agree with you that it's pernicious, that the lower tiers of the British and US university teaching system seem over the last couple of decades to have regarded it as something to build syllabuses around rather than as something to train the people doing moral support for first-year undergraduates to handle: "you're not a large fish in a small pond any more, you're being compared with the best people in the country, you will have to work more than you used to in order to get results as good as you used to get" is a lecture that the tutors at Oxford at least have kept giving.

However, you seem to be under the very persistent misapprehension that the mersenneforum forum should be subject to the sort of etiquette that is entirely reasonable for an Oxford or MIT supervision.

Yep. And I see the admins in this group furthering this view: The
culture here is "get credit for superficial work", rather than "develop
real competence".

As an admin, handing out credit is not in the slightest my job; promoting harmony is. Credit comes to people from their peers, and the credit that bsquared or jasonp or TheJudger or msft have got from the really competent work that they've done and made available comes in a different and non-convertible currency from the GHz-years that the prime95 server issues.

[Random Poster]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

A good teacher tells the student not what he wants to know but what he needs to know. If this is annoying to the student then the student needs to grow up.

How is that relevant to this forum? People don't become your students just because they ask questions here.

[wblipp]

Originally Posted by Random Poster

How is that relevant to this forum?

This may be the central disagreement that people have with RDS's unique pedagogic ways.

I agree that by and large the American educational system beats the love of learning out of students. It gets replaced by a greed for grades. But I don't think we are part of that educational system here, and even if we are, I don't think we can beat the love learning back into the students with a stick.

John Dewey's educational philosophy, called "Progressive Education," has a lot to say about ways to preserve and perhaps reignite love of learning - he doesn't think a stick is helpful, either.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

I don't expect serious math. I do expect high school level math plus a willingness to learn.

Fine, but you seem once again to have trouble distinguishing between mersenneforum.org and your own classroom.

Your continual presumption that you are entitled to state the prerequisites for participation in this forum is arrogant and out-of-place.

- - -

Mr. Silverman,

Do you or do you not comprehend that (1) mersenneforum.org is not your classroom, and (2) you are not an administrator or other rulesetter of this forum?

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by Random Poster

How is that relevant to this forum? People don't become your students just because they ask questions here.

YES THEY DO. The very act of asking questions of SMEs makes
them into students.

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

YES THEY DO. The very act of asking questions of SMEs makes
them into students.

he specifically said your students and they aren't that unless nobody else can answer them under what you said, as to :

A good teacher tells the student not what he wants to know
but what he needs to know. If this is annoying to the student
then the student needs to grow up.

that eliminated the need for questions in the schooling system and a reason to delete knowing how to ask question in the first place. after all the only reason to ask a question is to get a answer to something you don't already know but want to know and you just said the student won't get that so if the student forgets something they can't ask what is * again ? because that's asking what they want to know.

[Uncwilly]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

YES THEY DO. The very act of asking questions of SMEs makes them into students.

If I speak to an SubjectMatterExpert and ask questions, that does not make me a student. I have spoken to (years ago) a bona fide 'rocket scientist' about the development of a whole new class of rocket (now coming to fruition). My simple questions did not make me a student of rocket science. Journalists frequently ask questions of SME's and are not made into students by such questions.

[davieddy]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

They don't need algebraic geometry. They do need a mastery
of high school algebra.

And although I clearly am in the minority, I think that Plato's
admonishment would be quite apropos here.

I thought it was Pythagoras

David

[LaurV]

Originally Posted by wblipp

I agree that by and large the American educational system beats the love of learning out of students. It gets replaced by a greed for grades.

Not only the American. As I was studying and teaching and working with people from almost all around the world, trust me!