The Nature of Jesus - Page 2

ATH · 2011-08-22, 22:31

"I'm no missionary. I don't even believe in Jebus." "Save me Jebus!" - Homer Simpson.

LaurV · 2011-08-23, 02:31

There is no spoon...

Uncwilly · 2011-08-23, 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. P-1

I read in the Bible that God wanted his followers to rape and murder entire nations, and this made no sense to me.
Do you know of any Crusades I could join?

Can you provide a reference for your assertion of rape? I don't think that you will find that.

Calling deaths caused by war 'murder' is against the generally accepted usage of the word:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with "malice aforethought", and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter).
.......
Exclusions
Killing of enemy combatants by lawful combatants in accordance with lawful orders in war, although illicit killings within a war may constitute murder or homicidal war crimes. (see the Laws of war article)

All coloring mine.

The Crusades were not in accordance with the commands that Jesus left his disciples for the current period:

Quote:

Matthew 10:16
See, I send you out as sheep among wolves. Be then as wise as snakes, and as gentle as doves.

Matthew 5:38-44 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man would go to law with thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him two.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy:
but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;

John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

These should suffice to show the pattern. Those claiming to act for Him and don't act like Him are not following Him.

CRGreathouse · 2011-08-23, 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by wblipp

When government bailouts don't work, we need bigger bailouts. When regulation doesn't work, we need more regulation. When deregulation doesn't work, we need more deregulation. When drunk driving laws don't work, we need more laws. When spending more money on schools doesn't work, we need to spend even more. I'm sure you can come up with more,

Rings true.

imwithid · 2011-08-23, 08:16

I generally detest these debates as natural fact battles probable fiction [JFC].

I will present my bias as being a member of the Church of Carlin, which espouses the mantra "I was a Catholic... until I reached the age of reason".

We are human beings with natural wants and needs. Abstinence is as natural as sleeping upside down or walking down right on one's hands. As animals, we are intrinsically bred with survival instincts. Under the umbrella of survival falls breeding, a genetic form of re-creating ourselves; that is the extent to which we can hope to live forever.

I find this "Jesus as Lord" statement or argument (?) to be utter non-sense as Christians (whom I used to be; I've read the bible a few times in my youth) are generally dishonest (as I was, towing the line to those who I argued with) in their tactics in debate as the explanations fall into the usual categories: mystery (miracles - unexplainable), vagueries (Jesus is Lord) or ignorance, inconsistency and hypocrisy (arbitrary (or limited consensus - i.e. Council of Trent et al) picking and choosing of facts to fit doctrine).

One which began to bother me towards my very late teens (and conversion away) was that god created humans (us) in his own image. It was this verse in Genesis that stuck in my mind as I argued with a friend, that homosexuality was an inappropriate way to engage in (despite males generally accepting and lusting over fantasies of lesbians, itself a contradiction as a Catholic). He called me on my bullsh*t and deep down, I didn't believe it but stuck to my beliefs as they had been ingrained since my birth and baptism into Catholicism ultimately through the made up sacrament of confirmation at an age of confusion and utter ignorance and foolishness.

If we, as humans, are created in his image than god is, probably, given the average, a bi-sexual with somewhat ambiguous leanings towards benevolence with a slight leaning towards good.

I expect the splitting of hairs and reading between the lines to begin with that last statement (especially accusing god of being part gay by using the bible and the aggregate qualities of human beings).

The Roman Catholic Church is a corrupt organization. It was tough in the medieval ages as ignorance, fear and death was common and widespread (illness, illiteracy, unsanitary conditions). The vigor of knowledge and communication in combination with the widespread revelation of sexual abuse and other forms of physical abuse (look to the Canadian Indian residential school system or native abuse survivors in the US as a sample) and hypocrisy have left the church hard in their stance yet weak and brittle given the financial state of many of their archdiocese and general movement away from religion.

I now come to see the bible as no different from any other fairy tale or story of fantasy: an ancient story based on a philosopher or revolutionary, honored through song and lore, re-told over centuries and eventually written by semi-literates and translated over and again through many languages over millennia.

Note: I, intentionally, do not capitalize the word "god". There possibly may be no god(s), but there may possibly be (a) god(s).

Mr. P-1 · 2011-08-23, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncwilly

Can you provide a reference for your assertion of rape? I don't think that you will find that.

Numbers 31:17-18

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

What do you think saving the girls "for yourselves" means?

Quote:

Calling deaths caused by war 'murder' is against the generally accepted usage of the word:

By what ethical or legal standard is killing women because they're not virgins anything other than murder?

Quote:

The Crusades were not in accordance with the commands that Jesus left his disciples for the current period:

They seem perfectly consistent with God's commands from the previous era. So are you saying that the only thing wrong with the Crusades is they were just too late?

Christenson · 2011-08-25, 03:18

Darn, Imwithid,
I thought you were for sure a born-again pastafarian, saved from Jaws by the great noodle!

I think the bible is a literally true account, translated a sufficient number of times as to be far from its original meaning, having been subjected to such phenomena as intermediate languages with no words for certain concepts. We see this in the second book of John, and we also see this in Plato when he talks about Socrates "Demon".

It's worth thinking about that homosexuality wasn't a sin for Catholics until the 15th century...there's so much manipulation of religion for political purposes it isn't funny.

Finally, if you think about God making man in his own image, think about the relationship between an ant, a very limited creature, and a man. The man is to the ant as a god...has the power of life and death, sometimes just toys with the ant, sometimes studies him for years on end, mostly just acts at random as far as the ant can tell. One day, some crazy genetic engineer figures out how to make ants with human faces on their abdomen, just for a demonstration of power.

Now, think how a great God might appear to man...motivation totally mysterious, just random things.....and he really doesn't care much about many individuals.

If you want a conspiracy theory, but only for fun: The european debt crisis (and the American one) was manufactured to distract attention from the fact that if the pope was anyone else in the world, he'd have been jailed, and subsequently murdered by his fellow inmates, as an accessory to child rape and child abuse.

Xyzzy · 2011-08-26, 16:54

Quote:

I think the bible is a literally true account, translated a sufficient number of times as to be far from its original meaning, having been subjected to such phenomena as intermediate languages with no words for certain concepts.

http://news.yahoo.com/jerusalem-scho...092932128.html

Christenson · 2011-08-27, 01:31

Whoops, more political manipulation than I had imagined....but I assure you it is there.

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2011-08-22, 22:31	#12
ATH Einyen Dec 2003 Denmark C56₁₆ Posts	"I'm no missionary. I don't even believe in Jebus." "Save me Jebus!" - Homer Simpson.

2011-08-23, 02:31	#13
LaurV Romulan Interpreter Jun 2011 Thailand 7²×197 Posts	There is no spoon...

2011-08-23, 08:16	#16
imwithid Apr 2009 Venice, Chased by Jaws 3×29 Posts	I generally detest these debates as natural fact battles probable fiction [JFC]. I will present my bias as being a member of the Church of Carlin, which espouses the mantra "I was a Catholic... until I reached the age of reason". We are human beings with natural wants and needs. Abstinence is as natural as sleeping upside down or walking down right on one's hands. As animals, we are intrinsically bred with survival instincts. Under the umbrella of survival falls breeding, a genetic form of re-creating ourselves; that is the extent to which we can hope to live forever. I find this "Jesus as Lord" statement or argument (?) to be utter non-sense as Christians (whom I used to be; I've read the bible a few times in my youth) are generally dishonest (as I was, towing the line to those who I argued with) in their tactics in debate as the explanations fall into the usual categories: mystery (miracles - unexplainable), vagueries (Jesus is Lord) or ignorance, inconsistency and hypocrisy (arbitrary (or limited consensus - i.e. Council of Trent et al) picking and choosing of facts to fit doctrine). One which began to bother me towards my very late teens (and conversion away) was that god created humans (us) in his own image. It was this verse in Genesis that stuck in my mind as I argued with a friend, that homosexuality was an inappropriate way to engage in (despite males generally accepting and lusting over fantasies of lesbians, itself a contradiction as a Catholic). He called me on my bullsh*t and deep down, I didn't believe it but stuck to my beliefs as they had been ingrained since my birth and baptism into Catholicism ultimately through the made up sacrament of confirmation at an age of confusion and utter ignorance and foolishness. If we, as humans, are created in his image than god is, probably, given the average, a bi-sexual with somewhat ambiguous leanings towards benevolence with a slight leaning towards good. I expect the splitting of hairs and reading between the lines to begin with that last statement (especially accusing god of being part gay by using the bible and the aggregate qualities of human beings). The Roman Catholic Church is a corrupt organization. It was tough in the medieval ages as ignorance, fear and death was common and widespread (illness, illiteracy, unsanitary conditions). The vigor of knowledge and communication in combination with the widespread revelation of sexual abuse and other forms of physical abuse (look to the Canadian Indian residential school system or native abuse survivors in the US as a sample) and hypocrisy have left the church hard in their stance yet weak and brittle given the financial state of many of their archdiocese and general movement away from religion. I now come to see the bible as no different from any other fairy tale or story of fantasy: an ancient story based on a philosopher or revolutionary, honored through song and lore, re-told over centuries and eventually written by semi-literates and translated over and again through many languages over millennia. Note: I, intentionally, do not capitalize the word "god". There possibly may be no god(s), but there may possibly be (a) god(s).

2011-08-25, 03:18	#18
Christenson Dec 2010 Monticello 5×359 Posts	Darn, Imwithid, I thought you were for sure a born-again pastafarian, saved from Jaws by the great noodle! I think the bible is a literally true account, translated a sufficient number of times as to be far from its original meaning, having been subjected to such phenomena as intermediate languages with no words for certain concepts. We see this in the second book of John, and we also see this in Plato when he talks about Socrates "Demon". It's worth thinking about that homosexuality wasn't a sin for Catholics until the 15th century...there's so much manipulation of religion for political purposes it isn't funny. Finally, if you think about God making man in his own image, think about the relationship between an ant, a very limited creature, and a man. The man is to the ant as a god...has the power of life and death, sometimes just toys with the ant, sometimes studies him for years on end, mostly just acts at random as far as the ant can tell. One day, some crazy genetic engineer figures out how to make ants with human faces on their abdomen, just for a demonstration of power. Now, think how a great God might appear to man...motivation totally mysterious, just random things.....and he really doesn't care much about many individuals. If you want a conspiracy theory, but only for fun: The european debt crisis (and the American one) was manufactured to distract attention from the fact that if the pope was anyone else in the world, he'd have been jailed, and subsequently murdered by his fellow inmates, as an accessory to child rape and child abuse.

2011-08-27, 01:31	#20
Christenson Dec 2010 Monticello 703₁₆ Posts	Whoops, more political manipulation than I had imagined....but I assure you it is there.