What is offensive language?

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by M29

Horrific?

Perhaps not. I'm not a muslim so I'm not directly threatened by the blanket hatred which is being stirred up, still less by threats of deportation of myself or my loved ones. So why should I be horrified?

Does he also say to send away Bosnians who cause trouble?

No, he hasn't singled out Bosnians as far as I know. The Bosnian refugees from the Balkan slaughter largely settled elsewhere: while there are some in The Netherlands they are not here in such numbers that Wilders is likely to make much political capital out of them.

Oops! You don't know me. I am a Yank who has been in Sweden for four years. Sorry.

I referred to Sweden as your country. Sorry if I inadvertently ascribed more allegiance to your home of four years than is in fact the case.

I know plenty of Swedes who are fed up. One guy actually said to me "Maybe America will rescue us?" I was shocked. I've heard even more shocking things from (non-Muslim) Iranian and Syrian immigrants

Could you explain what people in Sweden (native and immigrant) are fed up with and what they want to be rescued from? It might shed some light on things.

[M29]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

So why should I be horrified?

You wrote "a truly horrific selection of quotations which Wilders" so I assumed that Wilders' politics horrified you.

Originally Posted by Brian-E

....that Wilders is likely to make much political capital out of them.

Thanks for writing that. Do people think that Wilders is using immigration problems as a political stepping stone, or do they believe that he is sincere?

Originally Posted by Brian-E

I referred to Sweden as your country. Sorry if I inadvertently ascribed more allegiance to your home of four years than is in fact the case.

No problem and most certainly no offense. I didn't want you to think that you were talking with a Swede. I've been stuck here on "the project from hell".

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Could you explain what people in Sweden (native and immigrant) are fed up with and what they want to be rescued from? It might shed some light on things.

Most (most?) non-Muslim immigrants have fled their home countries to escape Muslims. Not only do they find themselves rubbing elbows with them again, but they resent being lumped together with them.

Iranian non-Muslims, such as Zoroastrians, refer to Iranian Muslims as "Muslims from Iran". The implication is that they are not true Iranians. Right or wrong, that is what they say.

According to Riksdag member Abdirisak Waberi (quote courtesy of Wikileaks) Somalians will never feel integrated... will never feel Swedish. And to see them walking around, they certainly don't look or act Swedish.

The "rescue" remark came from the father of a young girl. She is not allowed to go out alone at night. People of all ages are used to walking kilometers at all hours, but it is getting dangerous, they say. Here in town, a teen-aged Iraqi boy murdered his Swedish girlfriend a few months ago. This father has had other run-ins with immigrants (Croat kids, I think).

The Iraqi husband of an Iraqi lady at work was murdered by another Iraqi man. They say that he will be released from prison after five (seven?) years. She is worried sick that her sons will try to avenge her husband.

The list goes on. People see their way of life changing and the crime rates (especially rape) going up.

Oh, here's one that *really* upsets everybody. Thai immigrants working in teams pick all the mushrooms! This is, actually, serious. It is a family thing to walk into the forest and gather mushrooms. Parents, young children, grandparents. So it is Saturday morning, the family is all here again this year, you go the neighborhood park/forest across the street and there is..... NOTHING! It really ruins a family tradition.

There are apple trees scattered about. A friend rides his bike to work and often stops to pick one apple for himself and one for me. One day he finds a Polish lady up in the tree picking every last one. Little things like this add up and people get sick and tired of it.

Ernst, if you are reading this, I went out into the countryside and got 11.5 kg of Pfifferlingen! Not in one day, mind you, but I found a great spot. And I had my Garmin with me.

[davieddy]

Originally Posted by M29

No problem and most certainly no offense.

AFAIK no fence was taken.

Touche

David

PS It's more "Eddyfying" to hear you two going at it
than Cheesehead and Zetaflux:)

[Zeta-Flux]

Originally Posted by cheesehead

You've made it clear that you're opposed to an ERA.

No. I've made it clear that I question the 3 state strategy (on multiple fronts) for passing the previous ERA. That is all.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by M29

You wrote "a truly horrific selection of quotations which Wilders" so I assumed that Wilders' politics horrified you.

It does horrify me.

As my naive and unnecessary attempts to avoid unpleasant statements by asking related questions haven't worked, I'll say it directly instead. I should have done that before.

Wilders, like other similar politicians in Europe, plays on human fears and insecurities and the tendency that people have to want to blame an entire group - he's singled out muslims especially, also to a lesser extent first and second generation immigrants, for the problems and dangers, real and perceived, in their lives. He tells people what they want to hear, namely that we wouldn't have these problems if we didn't have muslims living here. This collective scapegoat is perfect for his purposes: the group is large enough (about 5% of the population) to be visible, but not so large or as yet well-integrated that Wilders' target voters are likely to count many muslims amongst their friends.

You write about these same fears and insecurities as Swedish people experience them. Thankyou for these excellent examples. So on the serious side we read that there were two murders, that crime rates have increased generally, and that people think (very likely correctly) that the streets are less safe at night than they used to be. For the more mundane issues - which of course also seriously concern people - we read about observing Somali people walking around and thinking that they don't look integrated, or difficulties with the fair distribution of wild fruit and vegetables. And you write that people are fed up with these problems and want an answer.

Isn't it beguiling when a politician or political party says that they have an answer: it's all the fault of muslims or of immigrants in general and if they weren't here it would all be alright?

Is there any rational basis at all for this wider assigning of blame onto entire groups? Sometimes yes, in the sense that in certain specific instances you can measure an over-representation of a particular group amongst perpetrators of a particular antisocial attribute. Here in The Netherlands for example it has been established that Maroccan youths are over-represented in crimes involving random attacks against lesbians and gay men in so-called hate crimes. It can probably be explained by fact that these young Maroccans have grown up in families where the parents moved from a country which to this day criminalises homosexuality. "Over-representation" means in this case that the small percentage of Maroccan youngsters who perpetrate these attacks is matched by an even smaller percentage of Dutch youths who do the same thing. In both cases the overwhelming majority do not offend. The information may be important for some purposes (targetting information about sexuality and diversity springs to mind) but must not be misused to paint all Maroccans as dangerous or antisocial. That is a myth and its continued propagation causes untold damage.

Integration of religious- and immigrant groups with the wider community has proceeded slowly over the half century in which it has been an issue and it is still fraught with problems. Nevertheless we have long since reached the stage in the more prosperous European countries where all groups are part of society and everyone takes part. There is nothing to be gained, and everything to lose, from reactivating old fears and suspicions as Wilders and others like him in Europe are doing.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux

No. I've made it clear that I question the 3 state strategy (on multiple fronts) for passing the previous ERA. That is all.

If you weren't basically against the ERA, you'd probably have noticed the mistakes in your reasoning before you posted, or at least after they were pointed out. That (lack of acknowledgment of mistakes) is why I said you've made your opposition clear, and why I'm not bothering to repeat my corrections.

You're not trying to avoid admitting that you oppose the ERA, are you?

[Uncwilly]

Originally Posted by cheesehead

You're not trying to avoid admitting that you oppose the ERA, are you?

I think that the IRA went about things all wrong.

[davieddy]

Originally Posted by Uncwilly

I think that the IRA went about things all wrong.

Aren't you thinking of the EMU?

IRA Gershwin wrote some fine songs, but by way
of apologizing, I shall refrain from posting any links:)

David (England)

[Xyzzy]

Aren't you thinking of the EMU?

[R.D. Silverman]

Originally Posted by cheesehead

If you weren't basically against the ERA, you'd probably have noticed the mistakes in your reasoning before you posted, or at least after they were pointed out. That (lack of acknowledgment of mistakes) is why I said you've made your opposition clear, and why I'm not bothering to repeat my corrections.

You're not trying to avoid admitting that you oppose the ERA, are you?

You don't expect him to admit it do you?

[davieddy]

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

You don't expect him to admit it do you?

To which era are we referring?