Official "Tzipi Livni: Hot or Not?" Thread

[tha]

Originally Posted by S00113

Just a reality check: Do you mean that Israel isn't committing war crimes, or that their crimes are by any means justifiable?

The local people are dying because of severe war crimes. Ambulances are off limit for use as means of warfare. Once you've figured out that a force uses ambulances to transport rockets with explosives and use them for transporting troops, the ambulances are legal target. Regardless of what is in it. I still see them being used a lot in Gaza. Clearly the local people still see them as safe enough to travel.

I too worry a lot about the picture in the media. But I have no reason to blame the Israeli army for their actions.

[S00113]

Originally Posted by tha

The local people are dying because of severe war crimes.

At least we agree on the fact that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

Ambulances are off limit for use as means of warfare. Once you've figured out that a force uses ambulances to transport rockets with explosives and use them for transporting troops, the ambulances are legal target.

All ambulanses shot or bombed so far have been full of ambulance drivers, doctors and severly wounded people. No rockets. Not even the Israeli army claim there were rockets in the ambulances. One convoi of 19 ambulances were on their way to Egypt when they were attacked. To Egypt with rockets!? You are making this up. Why do you make up all this, tha?

Regardless of what is in it. I still see them being used a lot in Gaza. Clearly the local people still see them as safe enough to travel.

When your legs are blown off, and your alternatives are to die in the street or have a chance of making it to a overfull hospital and maybe survive, would you take the chance or die in the street? The Palestinian ambulance drivers, doctors and nurses are fantastic people. I can't believe their courage. I am full of admiration.

I too worry a lot about the picture in the media.

And the media are severly restricted. They can't show what is happening in there because of the Israeli war crimes (barring media out is a war crime).

But I have no reason to blame the Israeli army for their actions.

What kind of crimes would the Israeli army have to commit for you to get a reason to blame them?

[garo]

tha, you are just making stuff up along the way. You are copying the Israeli army tactic of disputing every single allegation in the face of clear contrary evidence and throwing out so much nonsense and false accusations that it becomes hard to figure out what is right and wrong.

2 doctors and 12 ambulance drivers have been killed by attacks on ambulances.

Rescuers were not allowed by the Israeli Army to reach small children for four days as they lay crying and clinging to the bodies of their dead mothers killed by Israeli bombing.

Step-by-step account:
1. Israeli Army shells a UN school whose co-ordinates were given to them by the UN.
2. When this is reported in the paper they claim that rockets were fired from the school.
3. UN strictly denies this and challenges Israeli Army to prove this.
4. Israeli Army goes quiet after a couple of days and admits that maybe shells were not fired from the school.
5. Supporters of Israeli actions still keep claiming that rockets were fired from school.
6. When presented with statements from Israeli Army saying their earlier claims were wrong, they now say : This is war and mistakes happen in war.

Typical, typical obfuscatory tactics. Please read the article by Fintan O'Toole I posted in the other thread. It gives a six-step guide to justifying atrocities that tha seems to have perfected into an art form.


Other instances of this type of justification that come to mind include:

1. US bombing of a TV station in Belgrade. US claimed at first that it was a propaganda machine so killing of journalists was justified.
2. US bombing of a milk factory in Iraq in 1991 in which they claimed it was being used for bio-weapons AFTER Peter Arnett had reported on CNN from that site. For his account, the journalist was accused of treason by the White House.
3. Bombing of a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan again claiming it was for bio-weapons even after journalists had been to the site and confirmed that it was a pharma factory.

Al Franken's book title seems to summarize this approach:
Lying Lies and the Liars Who Tell Them.

And where the hell are those Weapons of Mass Destruction?

PS: Sturle, tha would find justification if Israel dropped a nuclear bomb on Gaza. You can count on it!

[BotXXX]

Originally Posted by tha

Instead of playing the blame game, let us help resolve the conflict.
Try to formulate a deal that you think you can sell to Israel, the people of Gaza, to Egypt, to Hamas, to Teheran, to Saudi Arabia, to Abbas, to the people in the West bank, to Jordan, to the US and Europe.

I think would be one of the most difficult (if not impossible) tasks that there would be. Since the conflict goes back far far in history and is told in many many different versions in different cultures etc. Each from different standpoints and life values. And you would need people that have a deep understanding of the situation, the history and current parties and their plans/goals. And most of all have deep understanding of 'government-forms' to see what fits best for the situation - the idea that democratic state or republic is the way to go is perhaps very overrated.

To comment on the conflict it self - I think I wouldn't be a good discussion partner. The news I've been watching all these years in regular news bulletins was mostly pro-Isreal and only the last 5-6 years you see an assumed "equal" share of both sides. My impressions over all the years are that the Isreali side have a very well working propoganda machine - English speaking nicely dressed officials that were giving pressconferences - that compared to the rare pressconferences from Palastina side by poor looking and only arabic speaking persons also created a prejudged view on the situation. Only the last years you see a big improvement in the pressconferences from Palastina's side.

The whole issue will eventualy grab back at the "United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181" which is, I my opinion, among the worst post-war deals made. Also this comment, allegedly from a 1949 cia report, speaks well for it self:
"The establishment of the State of Israel by force, with intimidation of the Arab governments by the US and USSR, with the cutting off of the British arms and ammunition (the Arabs only source of supply), with ample sources for Israel of munitions and finance, the Israeli battle victory is complete, but it has solved nothing."

Of course there have been many developments and changes since that time on all sides. But territory and ethnic/religious issues are not easily to overcome with political solutions. My opinion would be that these issues come back over time and can cause revolts/wars easily (vaguely referring to the Balkan area and it's results between 1991 and 2001 - different ofcourse but also compareable on some levels, but perhaps well to leave that out of the discussion).

[ewmayer]

Originally Posted by garo

PS: Sturle, tha would find justification if Israel dropped a nuclear bomb on Gaza. You can count on it!

Would that mean that S00113 is none other than long-time GIMPSer Sturle Sunde, or is this some other Sturle posting here?

[S00113]

Originally Posted by BotXXX

Of course there have been many developments and changes since that time on all sides. But territory and ethnic/religious issues are not easily to overcome with political solutions. My opinion would be that these issues come back over time and can cause revolts/wars easily (vaguely referring to the Balkan area and it's results between 1991 and 2001 - different ofcourse but also compareable on some levels, but perhaps well to leave that out of the discussion).

I think the only real solution would be one state where the Palestinians are given their land and property back and invited to live side by side with the Israelis in one big country. Israel today is built on racial theories which belong to another century, and was a constant source of trouble then as well as now. The country should have a constitution where all are considered equal citicens of the one national state. (Israel doesn't have a constitution now. Many Israeli laws would look very bad if written in a constitution.)

South Africa managed to become a unity. I am sure Israel and Palestine will manage as well, if they try. Arabs, jews and christians live in peace all over the Middle East (with the notable exception of Saudi Arabia, where jews are not even allowed to visit). Why not in Palestine?

Balkan is... Balkan. Yugoslavia was held together by a strong communist leader. This strong unifying leader was replaced by a lot of turbulence and a bad nationalist. The story turned ugly, and I don't think it will end happily until all the former Yougoslavian republics have become EU members.

Today Israel bombed three hospitals and the UN headquarters in Gaza using white phosphorus boms. I am sure tha will say that small children were sitting on the roof firing rockets against Israel when it happened. And a cemetary, just for good measure. I guess they have run out of visible living targets, and want to make sure the people buried there are really dead. The number of children killed is increasing rapidly as they get within machine gun range of the advancing Israeli army.

[S00113]

Originally Posted by ewmayer

Would that mean that S00113 is none other than long-time GIMPSer Sturle Sunde, or is this some other Sturle posting here?

The same as he one in HRF5.TXT. I mostly used Indys and Suns in the beginning, and was a late adopter of primenet. That's the reason for the high number. 113 also happened to be my appartment number at that time and for ten years, and S is both my initials, so I kept it as my user ID. But this belong in another thread.

[rogue]

Originally Posted by S00113

I think the only real solution would be one state where the Palestinians are given their land and property back and invited to live side by side with the Israelis in one big country.

That would be nice, but that would require Hamas to accept Israel as a state and for Israel to accept Palestinians into their country and give them equal rights. I think that there are some major religious/ethnic barriers that would prevent it from being a peaceful co-existence. Look at what happened in what used to be Yugoslavia.

[ewmayer]

Originally Posted by S00113

South Africa managed to become a unity. I am sure Israel and Palestine will manage as well, if they try. Arabs, jews and christians live in peace all over the Middle East (with the notable exception of Saudi Arabia, where jews are not even allowed to visit). Why not in Palestine?

The "living in peace all over" does not square at all with my understanding of the situation in most middle eastern countries. The typical situation as I see it ranges from "minority religions are at best tolerated as long as they are very discreet and don't do anything that smacks of proselytizing" to "exterminate the [insert name of minority religion here]." Saudi Arabia is of course a particularly egregious example of state-sponsored religious intolerance, but look at e.g. Iraqi Shiites and Kurds during Saddam's reign or the dwindling number of Iraqi Christians in the past 5 years. It ain't pretty.

In South Africa, by way of contrast, the centuries-long work of missionaries meant that the country was predominantly Christian (albeit various strains thereof), so the major differences were racial, economic and (among the black people) tribal affiliation. Perhaps SA is the exception rather than rule (places like Rwanda show a very different face), but I find it telling that all the latter differences seem to have been easier to overcome than (say) the differences between Sunni and Shia Iraqis (or e.g. Catholic and Protestant Irish), who belong to different sects of the same religion and have a shared cultural and ethnic background, yet simply cannot seem to get along.

So if someone has shining examples of Middle Eastern countries where, as Sturle claims, people of all stripes get along and live in harmony, please do tell us what they are.

[Prime95]

Originally Posted by S00113

I think the only real solution would be one state where the Palestinians are given their land and property back and invited to live side by side with the Israelis in one big country.

While we are dreaming, how about a three state solution? Israel, Palestine, and a neutral state that is ~50-50 to act as a buffer between the two. Jerusalem would fall in the buffer state.

Back to reality.... I don't expect any progress in the region in my lifetime.

[S00113]

Originally Posted by ewmayer

The "living in peace all over" does not square at all with my understanding of the situation in most middle eastern countries. The typical situation as I see it ranges from "minority religions are at best tolerated as long as they are very discreet and don't do anything that smacks of proselytizing" to "exterminate the [insert name of minority religion here]." Saudi Arabia is of course a particularly egregious example of state-sponsored religious intolerance, but look at e.g. Iraqi Shiites and Kurds during Saddam's reign or the dwindling number of Iraqi Christians in the past 5 years. It ain't pretty.

Millions of people have left Iraq in the past 5 years. My best guess is that the christians have more incentives to flee from the civil war in Iraq, and may have more places to go than the muslims. Countries in Latin America are well known to welcome Christians from the Middle East.

The Kurds are another story. They fight for their own Kurdistan, which none of the countries in the area are willing to give them. Fighting with weapons to divide the country they live in do not make them popular among the majority in the country, or the government. Kurds are opressed in Turkey as well.

Mission for all religions except the state religion is forbidden in many Muslim countries. This was common practice in most countries with a state religion until the UN declared that freedom of faith is a basic human right. Also don't forget that some of those countries were flooded with missionaries for a while during British rule. They got very unpopular many places, and the laws are there just as much to protect missionaries as to protect the state religion.

While it is true that Saddam preferred people from his own Sunni dominant part of Iraq in his government, there was a peaceful relationship between Sunnis and Shiites under Saddam Hussein. All Iraqis were considered equal by Saddam Hussein's government. (Except for the Kurds fighting for their own country in Northern Iraq, North Western Iran and South Eastern Turkey.)

In South Africa, by way of contrast, the centuries-long work of missionaries meant that the country was predominantly Christian (albeit various strains thereof), so the major differences were racial, economic and (among the black people) tribal affiliation. Perhaps SA is the exception rather than rule (places like Rwanda show a very different face), but I find it telling that all the latter differences seem to have been easier to overcome than (say) the differences between Sunni and Shia Iraqis (or e.g. Catholic and Protestant Irish), who belong to different sects of the same religion and have a shared cultural and ethnic background, yet simply cannot seem to get along.

You have a point. Conflicts often arise where people can't accept that another group are taking over their own country, and they feel oppressed by it. "We were here first, you don't come here and come here!" Another example which springs to mind are the Basques who fight for their independence in Spain and France. Religion is not an issue there. Fortunately Spain doesn't react by taking over Basque homes by force and bombing hospitals in Bilbao, so there is still hope of a peaceful solution.

So if someone has shining examples of Middle Eastern countries where, as Sturle claims, people of all stripes get along and live in harmony, please do tell us what they are.

Iran, which has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread (or the slaughter in Gaza thread) is a very diverse country where only 51% of the inhabitants are Persians. 49% belong to different minorities. Most of them are Muslims, but there are also large religious minorities. Three of them, the Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians (an ancient Persian religion), even have reserved seats in the Parliament.

The only notable exceptions to religious tolerance in the Middle East are Saudi Arabia and Israel. Some minorities have problems in some countries, but in general people of different religions live in peace all over the Middle East, and most countries in the area have large and respected religious minorities.