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#1 | |
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∂2ω=0
Sep 2002
República de California
19×613 Posts |
Continuation of the now-rather-overlarge Global Financial Crisis thread. We begin by looking back: Bloomberg's obituary for 2008 begins thusly:
Journal of a Plague Year: Faith in Markets Cracks Under $30 Trillion Loss Quote:
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#2 |
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6809 > 6502
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Aug 2003
101×103 Posts
2·4,909 Posts |
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#3 |
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Aug 2003
Snicker, AL
11101111112 Posts |
Before this is over, you may say "wish this was 1930".
On a different tack, I made a large payment on a loan for 130 acres of land. While I was at the local bank, I talked with the lady loan officer. I asked her what effects were they feeling from the market crisis and were they still lending money. Her reply was that yes they were still lending and they had never stopped lending, but that very few people were borrowing money. Now think about this for a minute. This is a well run local bank that has loaned money within this community for many years. They have access to money to lend, but nobody wants to borrow. If you are in the business of lending money, then the way you make money is from lending. This banks revenues are going to be hurt by the global market malfunction because of the simple effect that their source of profit has been curtailed. Just some thoughts for the 1st day of a new year. DarJones |
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#4 | |
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∂2ω=0
Sep 2002
República de California
19×613 Posts |
Kathleen Pender, writer of the San Francisco Chronicle Net Worth column, has a nice description of the answer to the above question, containing a startling statistic which I have highlighted in bold:
Investors ask: Where did all that money go? Quote:
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#5 | |
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Nov 2003
746010 Posts |
Quote:
To go from $20T to $45T in 5 years is about 15% a year. The long-term historical average for equities has been about 8%/year. 15%/yr is indeed an extraordinary growth rate. At 8%/yr, the market value should now be about (1.08)^5 * $20T... = $29T. Add another $1.5T for the actual investment and we get a market value of $30.5T. So we must ask why the market collapsed to a value significantly LOWER than what the long-term average would yield? IMO, it is simple panic. Comments? |
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#6 | |
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Nov 2003
22×5×373 Posts |
Quote:
We need some laws implementing structural changes in the way Wall Street does business. (1) Perhaps we should disallow buying ANY equity on margin......Just an idea. (2) There should be no 'secondary' lending. If you are a financial institution and want to lend money, go ahead. But now, YOU take the risk. It should be illegal to sell the loan to another party. (3) We BADLY need laws that restrict the way financial (and other) companies compensate their employees. (a) The way companies give out bonuses now strongly encourages short-term risky behavior on the part of employees. (b) Employees are not the owners of public companies. But they act as if they are. Money handed out in bonuses most properly belongs to the STOCKHOLDERS. These bonuses amount to legalized stealing from the stockholders. I see a couple of possibilities.. One is that any compensation scheme including one in which bonuses are given must be approved at the annual stockholders meeting. Any bonus scheme should also apply equally to all employees and not just the traders and managers who take these absurd risks. Golden parachutes should also require stockholder (and not just board approval). A second possibility (and one that I like) is that Congress should pass a law stating that total compensation (including salary, stock options, stock grants, perks such as limo rides etc) should have a ceiling that is at most (say) 20 times the corporate median compensation. I don't but the horsesh*t argument that these ridiculous bonuses are needed to attract 'talent' or to 'retain' employees. Above all, bonuses need to be tied to overall CORPORATE performance. (c) Senior Managers always argue that they deserve these bonuses because they are responsible for seeing that the company does well and that they should be compensated when it does do well. Perhaps true. However, it equally applies that if a company does poorly, that these same managers must be held accountable. If layoffs are necessary, then they should be the first ones out the door. And they should only be entitled to the same layoff compensation as ALL OTHER employees. They should also be the last ones hired back in case the company does hire back any laid off employees. An alternative to this scheme might be that layoffs must occur in order of compensation; The highest paid employees get laid off first. Firstly, because they are the ones who most probably can survive such a layoff and secondlyy because it would minimize the number of employees laid off. Public corporations are given certain advantages under our legal system. Perhaps these advantages should also require that the social impact of layoffs be minimized. |
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#7 |
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6809 > 6502
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Aug 2003
101×103 Posts
2×4,909 Posts |
Well, responsible stockholders should demand that the board not allow such compensation. Those that invest, should not do so blindly.
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#8 | |
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Nov 2003
22×5×373 Posts |
Quote:
In principle yes. But who controls the agenda at annual meetings? Are stockholders ever allowed to vote on compensation schemes? Not AFAIK. Perhaps all we need is a law stating that such a vote MUST be taken at annual meetings. Otherwise, I see no chance of it ever happening in practice. Indeed, I know of no mechanism whereby the corporate compensation/bonus scheme is even made available to the stockholders. I have never seen an annual report that contains such information. And you can be sure that if the law does not require it, then it will never be included. Can a single (or even a group of) stockholder(s) even demand that such information be made available and voted upon at the annual meeting? Can the board prevent such a thing? I do not know the laws on this. If I, as a stockholder stood up at a meeting and demanded that the information be made available, could I even get a vote taken on such a demand? Could I then ask for a vote on a proposal to limit compensation and bonuses? Comments? |
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#9 |
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Tribal Bullet
Oct 2004
3·1,181 Posts |
How often does it happen that a stockholder revolt derails anything at all proposed by company management? IIRC half the equity in public companies is owned by huge mutual funds that agree by default with everything the board proposes. Incidentally, this year was the first I remember when revolts by stockholders actually appeared in the news; they never won.
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#10 | ||
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∂2ω=0
Sep 2002
República de California
19·613 Posts |
Quote:
It is also debatable whether the 8% figure used by most investment planners is genuinely sustainable in the truly long term, i.e. whether there has genuinely been (on average) an 8% growth in the value of goods and services in the global economy for the past century. To some degree simple population growth (and ignoring the effects of concomitant depletion of finite resources, which one can only do up to a point) support such a figure in the emerging economies of the world, but 8% in the developed world, where population growth has flattened out? That seems far-fetched to me. -------------------- Manufacturing index at 28-year low: Purchasing managers' report shows that December activity is contracting, remains recessionary. Thousands of stores to disappear in '09: Experts say disastrous holiday sales will force many more merchants into bankruptcy - and ultimately into liquidation. Secondhand stores shine in weak retail market: As thrifty customers turn to secondhand goods, resale stores are profiting from the recession. Quote:
Buffett's Berkshire Has `Nowhere to Hide' Amid Worst Drop in Three Decades: Billionaire Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway Inc. slumped 32 percent last year, the worst performance in more than three decades, as the U.S. recession forced down the value of the firm’s equity holdings and derivative bets. My Comment: One wonders whether the opportunity to buy BRK-A at the current sub-$100K valuation [or even better, for 20% less during the late November meltdown] will prove to be a steal a few years down the road, or whether 2009 will prove to be another "year of the unprecedented", with back-to-back huge yearly declines in equity valuations. |
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#11 |
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"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA
22×3×641 Posts |
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