Silverman Memorial Lectures on Due Diligence

[Jwb52z]

Originally Posted by bsquared

Exactly what Dr. Silverman is doing. You have to know how to properly converse about a subject, any subject, before you can learn it. To let people continue to get away with not doing it right only reinforces their belief that they can continue not doing it right. If people have no motivation for improving, then they won't improve. I've had run-ins with Dr. Silverman before, and while it made me mad at the way he responded, ultimately I only had myself to be mad at. I realized that after I realized where I was being lazy, and I got smarter as a result.

I'm glad you had a good result, but other people might not. There are those who would shrink like a violet and never ask another question to someone for fear of getting another harsh response and not wanting to go through that experience twice.

Originally Posted by bsquared

I'm sure I'm going to regret getting involved here, but this comment I can't let slide. How do you propose that a "regular" person progress past infantcy if not being judged and taught by people "above" them? Didn't somebody teach you to read and write? Didn't somebody teach you right from wrong? Do you consider it ok for discipline to be applied if a child bit his little brother? How would your personal development have been different if noone taught you that it's not ok to hit and bite as a child, perhaps with some harsh words? And finally, why should math be any different? This *is* a moral issue. Letting people get away with being irresponsible and lazy only encourages lazyness and irresponsibility, no matter where it occurs.

I don't consider everything you mention on the level of the way Dr. Silverman behaves to some people who don't respond the way he thinks they should or say things the way he thinks the right way to do it. Yes, I was taught how to read and write, but I was never spoken to harshly about it to that level either. Yes, I was taught right from wrong and I got alot worse than Dr. Silverman is about that because my father is a preacher, which is another reason I dislike people speaking to each other that way when trying to acquire or give information. Yes, it is ok to discipline a child for biting his brother, but again, belittling is not ok, especially with someone who doesn't know alot about something like a child or a person uninformed on a subject. Math is different because it is an academic subject and not life or morality. I don't consider that kind of laziness and "irresponsibility" to be on the level of morality and life and death. I'm all for people trying and learning in school, but not for the harshness when someone doesn't "get it" easily or quickly and needs words from a human,instead of a text book, who will try to keep finding newer explanations as long as the person doesn't understand who is trying to learn the subject. Personally, I don't learn anything when someone just tells me, "Go do X and come back when you have learned on your own", so I don't think anyone else should be expected to either.

[Jwb52z]

Originally Posted by ewmayer

Remove the "human" from that sentence and I might actually agree with you.

Ok, I knew I would get blasted for that comment, but it is logical in a certain mindframe, which is why I said it's not human logic.

Originally Posted by ewmayer

Replace the "know" with "believe" in that sentence and append a "because I have actually spent time skeptically examining the tenets of my belief system" and you might actually sound like something other than a pompous, smug religious zealot.

There's nothing wrong with the sentence, "I know what I believe to be appropriate". You're using a different connotation of "know" than I am. Saying, "I believe what I believe is appropriate" would be unnecessary repetition. I was using the sense of "know" being "I am aware of" and "I am relatively sure of", not anything else. I am nowhere near a "pompous, msug religious zealot", thank you.

[bsquared]

Originally Posted by Jwb52z

...
belittling is not ok, especially with someone who doesn't know alot about something like a child or a person uninformed on a subject.

I agree that a simple response of "You are not asking a question in a way that makes sense" would be better. But on the other hand I've seen even that response fly back in his face by the questioner, so I can understand why he gets frustrated. Maybe people genuinely interested in learning math have been turned off to the entire subject by daring to post a newbie question on this forum... if so that's unfortunate, but I think the number of people in that category is pretty small. More likely they are not genuinely interested in learning anything, and in fact are trying to do something meaningless or impossible, and everyone is better off if they are made to realize this as quickly as possible.

Originally Posted by Jwb52z

Math is different because it is an academic subject and not life or morality. I don't consider that kind of laziness and "irresponsibility" to be on the level of morality and life and death.

I'll respect your opinions, but that is a slippery slope IMO. If lazyness is ok for one difficult endeavor because someone is there to bail me out and figure out what I really meant, then it becomes easier to be lazy and reliant on others for the next one, and so on. Pretty soon the worldview is that everything is too hard, so why bother; someone will make sure I get what I need anyway. That to me is immoral, in a life and death sense.

[Batalov]

Hold on! There's more (...than Mary Schmich). And it's at least a decade old. So R.D. is OK in my book. (In fact I am just like him in real life. Let's be honest for a moment.)

"Accept certain inalienable truths: Food is not free. Professors will belittle. You, TOO, will grow bitter. And when you do, you'll fantasize..."

[Nelson]

Once and I don't remember exactly but I think it was "Readers Digest" this episode appeared:

little Johnny comes home from school and asks, " Mommy, where do I come from?"
Mommy being a dutiful parent, although not sure that Johnny is "ready", responds explaining all about the "Birds and Bees" and then asks, "Does that answer your Question?"
Johnny, "I guess so, ... but Joey says he comes from Chicago."

How does Johnny know how to frame that kind of question? He has no idea. The only thing that needs to be done is answer the question as we understand it if we don't understand at all then leave it be. What we are looking for is an answer that will inform even if the answer is a misunderstanding of the question it will still inform. Clarification will proceed from a legitimate answer not from berating. The berating and belittling are only a waste of resources mostly of time.

Perhaps, if most of those who know better would rate themselves by their own crank-o-meter they might be a lot more pleasant to be around.

nelson

[sylvester]

Originally Posted by Nelson

little Johnny comes home from school and asks, " Mommy,...

Nelson, please note that even in your own anecdote the little Johny went to his own parents, not to the county librarian.

Even though the analogy isn't a scientific method, you really should take a hint and construct you own strawmen out of the scientifically tested straw.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

[I'm sorry, I didn't notice that you are posting from the outside of the USA. If you are posting from Bundesrepublik Deutschland, then please substitute "kreise" in place of "county". If you are posting from Plzen,CZ then long live the Pilsner Urquell!]

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by sylvester

Nelson, please note that even in your own anecdote the little Johny went to his own parents, not to the county librarian.

Even though the analogy isn't a scientific method, you really should take a hint and construct you own strawmen out of the scientifically tested straw.

Thank you for your attention.

Not at all he went to who he thought would have sufficient authority to answer the question. It has nothing to do with Straw.

nelson

[only_human]

The tone in some of Dr. Silverman's messages is less than saccharine, but that is an aspect that I appreciate. I feel sure that I have hesitated a time or two prior to writing something here to give thought to what I am trying to say. Those hesitations have undoubtedly saved me some embarrassment.

Looking around here I would judge that even crankish messages are responded to with restraint and constructive feedback when the original post shows intrinsic effort and diligence.

It is ironic that the least appreciated feedback is often produced with significantly greatly clarity and effort than the original message.

[sylvester]

Originally Posted by Nelson

It has nothing to do with Straw.

I think you are indeed posting from the outside of the USA. Please read the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man article to understand what I was trying to allude to.

Thank you again.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by sylvester

I think you are indeed posting from the outside of the USA. Please read the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man article to understand what I was trying to allude to.

Thank you again.

Where I am posting from is irrevelant. Look at the title of my post. It's about answering the question as we understand it. It can well be we don't understand the question correctly. That too is unimportant. Any information we receive in a legitimate answer will be a help in phrasing the question to get the answer we are really looking for. Johnny wasn't looking for information on reproduction. It was only how the question was understood that was misplaced and became clear after the answer was given but was still not wasted time.

nelson

(P.S. that's should be Plzeñsky Prazdroj) What want me to write in french or german? I only know rudimentary czech and wouldn't vouch for my french either. This may not be relevant but is an example that may give you a little more background. http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpos...&postcount=208

[sylvester]

Originally Posted by ewmayer

ideological soapboxes and megaphones

I want to publicly thank E.W.Mayer,PhD for regaining his composture and replacing the four-letter-word with the above quote. I was getting afraid that the blood pressure of the people crucial to the GIMPS effort was getting to high for their own good.

This board is certainly getting inundated with messages that are indistinguishable from the plain old trolling. We really may need some official pollicy about how to deal with extremely stupid posts.

I definitely understand that the GIMPS effort will still bennefit from the involvement of dumb-asses who are are control of multiple SSE2-capable computers. Thus I really understand the need to avoid chasing them out. At the same time we want to preserve the sensible signal/noise ratio on this board.

How can we achieve that?