mersenneforum.org - for the vegetarians

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for the vegetarians

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Hahaha :lol:

(Sorry, I'm neither flooding nor posting constructive comment.)

:smile:

There is a strong belief among the Hindu's that one imbibes the spirit of what one eats. That's why animal meat is taboo for them for various reasons of developing the animal spirit.

Mahatma Gandhi realized that and put into practice his motto of Non Violence.

Pork meat is anathema for Muslims and strongly forbidden by their Imams.

The Christians also generally follow this principle as Christ drove the legion of devils in to a herd of pigs and they drowned in the sea.

Speaking for myself I adhere to a veg. diet myself but dont mind the occasional pork pie, the Frankfurter or the corned beef. :wink:

Mally :coffee:

[QUOTE=mfgoode;103985]:smile:

There is a strong belief among the Hindu's that one imbibes the spirit of what one eats. That's why animal meat is taboo for them for various reasons of developing the animal spirit.[/QUOTE]
Viewed from a different standpoint, this is also the reason for some cannibalism.

[QUOTE=jasong;104064]Viewed from a different standpoint, this is also the reason for some cannibalism.[/QUOTE]

Very True Jasong.

Also remember that all intelligent animals are non-flesh eating unless forced to. But it is not in their natural appetites or inborn.

We can train an elephant, monkeys, bears etc. because they are intelligent beings. Try that with a tiger and many a circus trainer has lost his life by trusting these and other carnivores.

All animals have an inbuilt fear of man. Its only when they learn that he is so fragile physically, that they will prey on him, but not naturally unless they are wounded or too old to hunt their natural prey.

Many varieties of ants feed on veg and they are the cleverest and one up on their scavenger cousins.

King Solomon praises the intelligent ants.

"Go to the ant, thou sluggard and learn its ways" [Book of Proverbs OT.]

Mally :coffee:

[QUOTE=mfgoode;104085]Very True Jasong.

Also remember that all intelligent animals are non-flesh eating unless forced to. But it is not in their natural appetites or inborn.[/QUOTE]False in general. Omnivores and carnivores outnumber herbivores amongst relatively intelligent animals. Parrots are the only exclusively herbivores I can think of, off-hand.

Cetacea (dolphins, whales, etc) are exclusively carnivores.

Chimps and bonobos hunt for meat to eat. This has been observed many times in wild populations.

It's quite clear from the human digestive track, from the lips and teeth onwards, that we are natural omnivores.

I don''t know whether you describe certain species of octopus, pig and crow as "intelligent", but the first are carnivores and the others omnivores. Given that you include bears (also omnivores in the wild) as intelligent, I suggest that you should include the others for consistency.

Paul

[QUOTE=xilman;104098]Parrots are the only exclusively herbivores I can think of, off-hand.[/QUOTE]Looking at: [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrots#Diet"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrots#Diet[/URL] you can see that parrots do eat flesh. It is an odd sight, that I have personally seen, a cockatoo holding a 'drum-stick' and eating it, or a frank.

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;104114]Looking at: [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrots#Diet"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrots#Diet[/URL] you can see that parrots do eat flesh. It is an odd sight, that I have personally seen, a cockatoo holding a 'drum-stick' and eating it, or a frank.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the information; it's something of which I wasn't previously aware.

[QUOTE=xilman;104098]False in general. Omnivores and carnivores outnumber herbivores amongst relatively intelligent animals. Parrots are the only exclusively herbivores I can think of, off-hand.

Cetacea (dolphins, whales, etc) are exclusively carnivores.

Chimps and bonobos hunt for meat to eat. This has been observed many times in wild populations.

It's quite clear from the human digestive track, from the lips and teeth onwards, that we are natural omnivores.

I don''t know whether you describe certain species of octopus, pig and crow as "intelligent", but the first are carnivores and the others omnivores. Given that you include bears (also omnivores in the wild) as intelligent, I suggest that you should include the others for consistency.

Paul[/QUOTE]

Well Paul I have no argument and your post is very enlightening.

However there was in the early church much controversy in the diet one should eat After Peter's vision when he saw in vision all sorts of animals both clean and unclean as the Jews observed this very strictly. He Was told

"Kill and eat" and when he was amazed the vision was repeated 3 times. There is a true spiritual explanation for this but I'll be going off topic.

The point is that there was considered a distinction between fish meat and animal flesh. The early church forbade animal meat on Fridays as abstinence, but fish meat was allowed.

Off hand I cannot say that scientifically there is a difference and would like to know from you if this is a fact. I think the circulation is different from animals as one point.

That's how the common saying "Making fish of one and flesh of the other" came into being.

If there is a difference then whales, dolphins etc are fish eating animals and should be excluded as flesh eating as their diet is other fish.

Also it should be remembered that a living creature if really hungry will eat anything and not differentiate for a food preference. That explains the parrot with a drumstick Uncwilly

Since you use the three categories which are not well known I browsed on the net and found the distinction. I myself could not pinpoint what an omnivore is.

Quote:
"There are three basic categories that fish can be classified in, based on their dietary needs. Those are: carnivore, herbivore, and omnivore.

Carnivores are meat eaters, generally requiring live foods. They have a large mouth with sharp pointed teeth that allow them to grasp their prey and tear off large chunks of flesh, which is swallowed whole rather than ground or chewed first. Carnivores have a short intestinal tract, and a relatively large stomach designed to hold an entire fish. Their digestive system lacks the ability to digest vegetable matter, so even though they might eat plants, they cannot derive nutrients from them as other fish do. Because they will chase down and eat other fish in the aquarium, carnivores are not suitable for a community tank.

Herbivores are on the opposite end of the dietary food chain from carnivores. Although herbivores can sometimes be seen eating live foods, the proper diet for an herbivore consists of plants, algae, and fruits. They usually have no stomach; instead they possess a specialized intestine that is capable of breaking down plant matter. Their teeth are flat, which allows them to grind food before swallowing it. Because they lack a stomach for holding large volumes of food, the herbivore must eat frequently - at least several times per day. Because herbivores require frequent feedings of vegetables and fruits, they are often not the best choice for a community tank.

Omnivores eat a variety of meat and vegetable matter. Although omnivores can and will eat vegetable matter, they cannot digest some types of grains and plants. Their teeth and digestive tract possesses some of the traits of both the carnivore and the herbivore. Omnivores are the easiest of all fish to feed, as they eat flake foods as well as live foods, and everything in between. For that reason, omnivores are an excellent choice for a community tank."

Our early ancestors probably had two stomachs for raw flesh, but with evolution and cooked meat the need for a second diminished and the 2nd. stomach is now the appendix.

We must also remember that Jesus partook of meat often at his meals. Yet he fed the 5000 with fish and bread ! The apostles were mostly fisherman but He converted them to fishers of men. Now Jasong if you are reading this please dont translate as cannibals! :lol:

My philosophy is anything done in moderation is okay.

Mally :coffee:

[quote=xilman;104098]Cetacea (dolphins, whales, etc) are exclusively carnivores.[/quote]I'd classify baleen whales as omnivores, since they can't be picky about the plants they strain in among the plankton. ("Baleen Whales - Diet & Eating Habits" at [URL]http://www.swbg-adventurecamps.com/animal-info/info-books/baleen/diet.htm[/URL])

[QUOTE=cheesehead;104132]I'd classify baleen whales as omnivores, since they can't be picky about the plants they strain in among the plankton. ("Baleen Whales - Diet & Eating Habits" at [URL]http://www.swbg-adventurecamps.com/animal-info/info-books/baleen/diet.htm[/URL])[/QUOTE]
As you wish. I won't argue. I confess I was thinking more of porpoises and dolphins than baleen whales. That said, I thought by far the major portion of baleen whales' food was plankton, the majority of which are crustacea.

Likewise, most true herbivores can't be too picky about the insects and nematodes they eat attached to their food.

Nonetheless many, if not most, intelligent animals are not herbivores but are predominiantly omnivorous or carnivorous.

Paul

... okay -- "brain food", and all that ...

BTW, just last night I saw a "Nature" episode about animals' efforts to get necessary minerals in their diets. One example was deer that were introduced to some desolate western Orkneys island, where the usual sources of calcium for deer are absent. (I.e., the vegetation was calcium-poor.)

Anyway, some guy using an infrared camera videoed one of the deer, at night, approaching a seabird nest where a fledgling had died (the parents routinely set out on migration when the fledglings are able to fly, but haven't yet done so). The deer picked up the bird body and very carefully chewed it for an hour or so before dropping it. When the cameraman went to the bird body, he found that the deer had chewed out the bones from the carcass, but left the meat, feathers, skin and all else. Even chewed away the bird's leg bones but left the feet attached to the skin -- "moderation", after all.

Regarding not being able to be picky about the occasional algae among the krill, or the mosquito sitting on a leaf: it appears that some fish that are considered strictly or mostly carnivorous do, in fact, rely on getting some half-digested vegetable food from the stomachs of their prey. They require some nutients from vegetable food but lack the enzymes to digest them, so they let someone else do the tricky part of the digestion, and then eat [I]them[/I]!

I don't have hard evidence to back this up, i.e. I don't know which species in particular would suffer from malnutrition if they didn't get half-digested vegetable food. It's a story I heard on some boards on aquaristics, but it seemed not too unplausible to me. But it makes for a nice anecdote that the line between carnivorous and herbivorous diet is a bit fuzzy. Another case is that wolves are pretty much the archetype of a carnivorous animal, yet they are quite fond of eating grapes, for example.

Alex

Not sure if it matters or not, but the gerbils like chicken and grapes.

And sunflower seeds.

:smile:
I quote from my post number 9

[QUOTE=Mally]
Also it should be remembered that a living creature if really hungry will eat anything and not differentiate for a food preference. That explains the parrot with a drumstick Uncwilly[/QUOTE]

Mally :coffee: