What's going on in France ?
 

I've been trying to follow this in the media, but I feel that I'm not getting the whole picture from any source. Apparently it started when two Muslim teenagers were electrocuted and the police were blamed. Now it appears to have become a much bigger issue regarding French nationals born in Africa or whose parents were born in Africa.

I'm having difficulty understanding the causes because I feel that the rioting has gotten out of hand for no apparent reason. Is this happening because people are taking advantage of the situation to create fear for no other reason that they can? Are the riots being orchestrated by a single person or single group? How much worse will it get? Will it spread to other countries?

I suspect the media in the U.S. is filtering much of the information due to political sensibilities so that the real reasons for the unrest are being watered down or outright ignored. I suppose one could compare this to the riots in Los Angeles caused by the acquittal of the police in the Rodney King beating. Is it similar to that? Could someone please enlighten me?

I think it is a bit like the Rodney King aftermath, except that there's less actual justification. (Meaning: I think the police didn't do it this time.) Perceptions & emotions seem to be the drivers of actions anyway. Maybe more like the US race riots in the 60s? (Apologies if I'm off - I'm not from US & was a bit too young back then.) The scale of it amazes me - it was reported as an improvement when only a few hundred cars were torched in a night! Despite the scale, there have been very few deaths.

Simplifying hugely & selecting subjectively, big factors are long-simmering resentment against discrimination especially in employment, not having a voice, feeling not accepted. Whole suburbs/communities of people in the same position. And there just might be some drug dealers who would like to see no-go areas free of the authorities, to make it worse. I think the boys' religion is not as important as their race / country of origin.

For world news, my personal choice is the BBC news website, [URL=http://news.bbc.co.uk]news.bbc.co.uk[/URL].

News from France
 

[QUOTE=markr]... The scale of it amazes me - it was reported as an improvement when only a few hundred cars were torched in a night! Despite the scale, there have been very few deaths.

Simplifying hugely & selecting subjectively, big factors are long-simmering resentment against discrimination especially in employment, not having a voice, feeling not accepted. Whole suburbs/communities of people in the same position. And there just might be some drug dealers who would like to see no-go areas free of the authorities, to make it worse. I think the boys' religion is not as important as their race / country of origin.[/QUOTE] You are very close to the truth. I could give you more details about my point of view, since I'm French, but my English vocabulary is limited in this domain. Let's try.
It is not a problem of religion. And I think these people burning cars are not all from Africa. It is a general problem of bad education: too many young people are badly educated by their parents ; they do not like to obey rules (get back home before 10pm, go/work at school, be a good member of the Republic, ...). Since the Socialists are back to the power (Mitterrand in 1981), the French state is distributing more and more money to poor people. So that they prefer not work at all and get the money from the state (and also from selling drugs or from unofficial work). Also, the unemployement is too high. And it is too high because the French Administration makes very difficult creating new companies and developing business. The cost of a guy at work in a company is too high. Chirac is not Socialist ; but he and his Government are acting in a more socialist way than Blair does in UK. Imagine the way of thinking of Socialists (Fabius, Lang, Hollande, Jospin, DSK, ...): in order to win the elections, they promiss anything. Socialists are pushing the "liberty" at the first place, forgotting to say that there are rules to obey. Young people hear "liberty, one can do what he wants" and they are deaf to the duties. Somehow, one can think about France as the sole communist country in the world that has succeeded. I guess this cannot last much more years. Many people are completely crazy and have forgotten that a Country is rich thanks to the work of everyone. Back to the riots, these young boys (10 to 18) are like young animals. They have no idea of being really poor in India or Africa. They just see other people being richer, and they are angry. They absolutely have no idea that many people in France are rich because they have worked a lot or because they have spent years learning at the University. They are lazy. Selling drugs requires less work (they just don't know that they will spent years in jail when they are grown-ups). They also have no real idea of what death means. Burning cars is just a game for them: will the TV talk about their town at 8 o'clock ? Not today. Lets burn more cars tomorrow! It is so easy to burn a car. They are very, very few ; but nasty. They are taking profit of living in a quite rich country, but they do not want to participate in the life of the country. And it is completely the fault of Mitterrand and of Socialists: Mitterrand said lies in order to be President ; amongst the Socialists, part of them continue to lie but many of them really think that they are saying the truth ! (just think about Martine Aubry and the 35 hours of work a week: it has really created jobs, but at a very high cost) they are crazy !. There are a lot of things to change in France, before it is too late. Reducing the number of people working for the State, Countries and Towns is the first thing to do. A Revolution !
Tony

[QUOTE=T.Rex]
It is not a problem of religion. And I think these people burning cars are not all from Africa. It is a general problem of bad education: too many young people are badly educated by their parents ; they do not like to obey rules (get back home before 10pm, go/work at school, be a good member of the Republic, ...).

<snip>

So that they prefer not work at all and get the money from the state (and also from selling drugs or from unofficial work). Also, the unemployement is too high.

<snip>

Socialists are pushing the "liberty" at the first place, forgotting to say that there are rules to obey. Young people hear "liberty, one can do what he wants" and they are deaf to the duties.

<snip>

Many people are completely crazy and have forgotten that a Country is rich thanks to the work of everyone. Back to the riots, these young boys (10 to 18) are like young animals. They have no idea of being really poor in India or Africa. They just see other people being richer, and they are angry. They absolutely have no idea that many people in France are rich because they have worked a lot or because they have spent years learning at the University. They are lazy. Selling drugs requires less work (they just don't know that they will spent years in jail when they are grown-ups).

<snip>

They are taking profit of living in a quite rich country, but they do not want to participate in the life of the country.

Tony[/QUOTE]


Applause!! Applause!!! :bow: :bow: More Applause!!! :banana:

We have these same exact problems here in the U.S. with certain
segments of our population. Poorly educated. Unmotivated by parents
to become educated. A preference to dealing dope to honest work.
A desire to live in the U.S., and partake of its economic opportunities, but
NOT assimilate themselves to our culture.

Everyone talks about "rights", but noone talks about "responsibilities".
Parents do not require their children to be responsible because they
themselves are not. The result is riots.

Rights *must* go hand-in-hand with responsibility. The alternative is
chaos.

Read C.M. Kornbluth's "All the Marching Morons". I see this as an
all too plausible future.

Going back to the riots in France, one of the reasons is that there is genuine frustration in the suburbs. Paris is a very segregated city in many ways, much like LA.

One of the problems that Tony does not touch upon is that there is genuine discrimination in France. The causes of this discrimination are not as obvious as one may think. It is not just race or religion but also lots of old boys network that keep out women and minorities and others who do not "fit in". These networks exist in almost all countries in the world. France is worse than the US and UK in this respect. Italy is probably worse than France.

While I agree that many people don't work and are resentful of the rich this could not be true of every poor person in France. Where and to whom a person is born has a great impact on the opportunities they get. So it is totally unfair to put everyone together.

Bob: Why should somebody who comes to the US assimilate in the dominant culture? Did the first european settlers do so? If everyone assimilates won't that make the US boring and homogenous? What is the US culture that you speak of anyway that people should assimilate to? And should foreign scientists assimilate and stop studying science and maths like a large part of the "native" US youth are doing? You forget that the Asian communities in the US are better educated than the whites. And they have not "assimilated" any more than the other communities you talk of. And talking of rights and responsibilities I am sure that you will agree that this is a problem that stretches across all races and communities. So please explain what you mean by assimilate because it sounds like you are saying these problems are exclusive to people who do not assimilate. And that leads me to infer that you think that this problem is problem is exclusive to immigrants.

[QUOTE=garo]Going back to the riots in France, one of the reasons is that there is genuine frustration in the suburbs. Paris is a very segregated city in many ways, much like LA.
One of the problems that Tony does not touch upon is that there is genuine discrimination in France. The causes of this discrimination are not as obvious as one may think. It is not just race or religion but also lots of old boys network that keep out women and minorities and others who do not "fit in". These networks exist in almost all countries in the world. France is worse than the US and UK in this respect. Italy is probably worse than France. [/QUOTE] What you say is not 100% clear for me.
An important thing to know about France is that a lot of large and high buildings have been quickly built in the suburbs around the 60's and 70's. First for providing flats for poor people, second for immigrant, third for French people coming back from Algeria. That leads to too many poor and not-well educated people in the same place. Ghetos.
[QUOTE]While I agree that many people don't work and are resentful of the rich this could not be true of every poor person in France. Where and to whom a person is born has a great impact on the opportunities they get. So it is totally unfair to put everyone together.
[/QUOTE]About education, all French people have access to the same level of education, whatever the place they live. Schools and teachers are paid by the State, and there are more money and more teachers in suburbs than in other parts of France. Going to school and to the University is really cheap, compared to the USA. If you are poor, YOU DON'T PAY for studying. If you are poor and a very good student, you can go into very good Engineer schools for free. Statistics shown that the % of children of poor immigrants that go to University and succeed is greater than the % of children of poor native French people ; showing that many of them want to succeed. The problem, then, is to get a job. It is another story. When you do not look like a native French, it is harder to get a job. Bad. Italian, Spanish, Polish ... looked as native French people. They had less problem. Not people from Africa. It is not easy to mix colors ...
Tony

[QUOTE=garo]

Bob: Why should somebody who comes to the US assimilate in the dominant culture?

[/QUOTE]

Sorry. I should be more specific. I don't mean "adopt our customs"
[although they should either adopt some of them or stay where they are
if they don't like ours]. Assimilate means "learn English". Too many
either can't be bothered, don't want to, or are too stupid.

Such people can't find decent paying jobs because jobs require the
ability to communicate with others.

[QUOTE=garo]

You forget that the Asian communities in the US are better educated than the whites. And they have not "assimilated" any more than the other communities you talk of.

[/QUOTE]


Yes they have. They adopt the American work ethic [The business of
America is business: Herbert Hoover] and they mostly learn our language.
They attend our schools and universities. Too many other immigrants
do not.

[QUOTE=garo]

<snip>

And that leads me to infer that you think that this problem is problem is exclusive to immigrants.[/QUOTE]


No indeed! There are sub-cultures of people who are born here with the
same attitude toward education.

too stupid ?
 

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman] Assimilate means "learn English". Too many
either can't be bothered, don't want to, or are too stupid.[/QUOTE] Do you speak another language ?
Have you ever lived and worked in another country where English is not the official language ?
I guess no. Because you would know that learning a language is very difficult when you are adult. I have a colleague who is a Doctor in Mathematics (he contributed long time ago to the Prolog language with Colmerauer). Since his way of speaking english was so bad, he decided to spent one full month in UK with lessons all the day. We did not see the difference about his English speaking after his trip ...
Tony

Tony,
Then we are in agreement. My point was precisely that of getting a job. The education system in France is much fairer to poor people than the one in US or even UK. I know what led to the ghetto-isation of Paris. I'm just saying that when I first went there I was surprised by the level of it.

Bob,
Tell me that you have successfully learnt a foreign language as an adult. If not, your statement come across as a double standard. There are many countries that get by fine with more than one language. Belgium is one example, so is Spain, India another. Even in the US for quite some time in the 19th century German was the second language for a large minority.

[QUOTE]
Yes they have. They adopt the American work ethic [The business of
America is business: Herbert Hoover] and they mostly learn our language.
They attend our schools and universities. Too many other immigrants
do not.
[/QUOTE]

Well so do the other immigrants you talk of. They work as janitors for $5/hr, or shitty hours for shitty pay at WalMart. Or spend 10 hours a day in the field, picking fruit and veg so that Americans can have fresh strawberries and orange juice. That is also the American work ethic. Exploit the immigrant to the hilt, eh?

I bet you've never worked for 10 hours in a field or cleaned offices from 6pm-2am. That is very hard work, much more physically demanding than your or my day job. And why should those jobs be paid less than 20% of your job? Their work is no less important than yours. Or is it? See Ken Loach's "Bread and Roses" to get an idea of what I am talking about.

[QUOTE=garo]Bob,
Tell me that you have successfully learnt a foreign language as an adult. If not, your statement come across as a double standard. There are many countries that get by fine with more than one language.[/QUOTE]

Garo, you are being too hard on Bob. For much of American history, immigrants came to America worked hard for low wages. They may or may not have learned English, but they insisted their children learned English, studied hard, adapted to the American culture, so that they would have a better life than their parents. Wonderful, admirable traits.

That other countries get by on multiple languages is fine, but that isn't the way it is in the USA. I believe bilingual education is doing a great disservice to the next generation. It sends the message that you can succeed (in school) without learning English. Then you graduate and find that you cannot succeed (well, changes are greatly reduced) because you're not fluent in English.

Bob also points out that this is not an immigrant problem. Many think that parents do not work as hard or push their children to work as hard as was done in previous generations. This may be normal as a country becomes wealthier, but it will inevitably lead to a declining America.

[QUOTE]They work as janitors for $5/hr, or shitty hours for shitty pay at WalMart. That is also the American work ethic. Exploit the immigrant to the hilt, eh?
And why should those jobs be paid less than 20% of your job?[/QUOTE]

Yes, that *is* the American way. The pay is lousy because of supply and demand. It also serves as a great incentive to have your kids learn English, study hard, and improve their lives. These better educated kids will make America stronger in the long run.

That is the simplistic explanation. I'm not anti-immigrant. In fact, I think immigrants generally are better employees. I'm not saying the CEO-to-janitor pay ratio is "in-balance". I'm not advocating eliminating the social safety net.

One must carefully consider the full range of consequences to all government policies. Raising minimum wages lets entry level workers earn more. But it also decreases the incentive to study hard and work hard to get a better job. It also reduces the competitiveness of American companies in the world marketplace. It reduces job growth as new employees are marginally more expensive to hire. It adds to inflation. In summary, make the minimum wage too low and you have starving workers. Raise it too high and you doom the future of America. You can now argue about the best midpoint that balances these two concerns.

[QUOTE=T.Rex]Do you speak another language ?
Have you ever lived and worked in another country where English is not the official language ?
I guess no. Because you would know that learning a language is very difficult when you are adult. I have a colleague who is a Doctor in Mathematics (he contributed long time ago to the Prolog language with Colmerauer). Since his way of speaking english was so bad, he decided to spent one full month in UK with lessons all the day. We did not see the difference about his English speaking after his trip ...
Tony[/QUOTE]

Je parle francais, mais je n'avais pas etudier la langue depuis quand
trente annees. J'avais oublier plus vocabulaire et conjugations du verbes.