Unusual mental developments (Asperger's syndrome)
 

I thought about this and decided to post to open up a question that may be taboo to many.

I have noticed that many of the people who frequent this message board exhibit behaviors that resemble Aspberger's syndrome. It is characterized by social ineptness, tendency to focus exclusively on a fixed subject, inability to interact effectively with other people, failed relationships, lack of close friends, and a tendency toward outstanding achievement in some specific field such as mathematics. In some ways, it could be referred to as the genius syndrome. It is felt that Albert Einstein may have had AS.

[url]http://maapservices.org/MAAP_Sub_Find_It_-_Publications_Ehlers_and_Gillberg_Article.htm[/url]

For the record, I have a son who has been diagnosed with AS. He is very intelligent but totally lacking in social graces. I exhibit some of the above traits but in a very mild form.

I'm curious, how many people on this board feel they or someone they know has AS.

Fusion :unsure:

Some people have sometimes accused me of having AS, but I really don't think I have any such disorder.

I have read accounts of people who were said to have AS. They range from people who genuinely have a problem that is disrupting their life to people who simply have a passion for a certain subject and don't particularly enjoy going to parties.

I would warn against being too ready to diagnose introverts as disabled. As one commentator remarked: "The person in the office next to me can't solve simple quadratic equations, but I don't say that he has a disability in mathematics." In my own experience, I have seen many people whose attitudes towards introverts and extroverts are, to put it lightly, hardly symmetrical.

Having said that, some people do behave in ways that unnecessarily antagonize others. Such people could be said to have a syndrome, in which case the most severe symptoms are what lay people would simply call "inconsiderateness", or perhaps more extreme versions of it. However, I should probably also say that that does not cover all the aspects of AS. I once read about a child who was so resistant to changes in routine that he had difficulty starting school after summer holidays.

[QUOTE=Fusion_power]I thought about this and decided to post to open up a question that may be taboo to many.

I have noticed that many of the people who frequent this message board exhibit behaviors that resemble Aspberger's syndrome. It is characterized by social ineptness, tendency to focus exclusively on a fixed subject, inability to interact effectively with other people, failed relationships, lack of close friends, and a tendency toward outstanding achievement in some specific field such as mathematics. In some ways, it could be referred to as the genius syndrome. It is felt that Albert Einstein may have had AS.

[url]http://maapservices.org/MAAP_Sub_Find_It_-_Publications_Ehlers_and_Gillberg_Article.htm[/url]

For the record, I have a son who has been diagnosed with AS. He is very intelligent but totally lacking in social graces. I exhibit some of the above traits but in a very mild form.

I'm curious, how many people on this board feel they or someone they know has AS.

Fusion :unsure:[/QUOTE]I am certain that one person I know well and get on well with, a very good mathematician, has Asperger's. There are several others I suspect of showing the condition.

It seems very clear that there is a continuous spectrum of behaviour from manically extrovert to profoundly autistic. On the autistic side of "normality" (whatever that is) I have personal contact with people ranging from mildly withdrawn and socially clumsy to the mentioned guy with AS. I show some of the symptoms myself but not very seriously. Some characteristics that seem common among these people and which I share include dedication to a particular hobby, fascination with word play, and a tendency to take things literally instead of or as well as figuratively.

There is some evidence that these personality traits may be influenced by heredity. A fascinating study came out a few years ago about the greatly increased incidence of autism and AS in and around Silicon Valley. Female geeks are very rare in the population as a whole (male geeks are not that common) and by far the highest concentration in the world is in that part of California. Now the observations may be explained entirely by better diagnosis (more obsessive parents paying much closer attention perhaps?) but the findings were rather suggestive.

Paul

Interesting question.

My 4 yr old shows signs of AS (according to his teachers). Others think he might be a high-functioning autistic. I'm not certain that I agree with either. He is clearly not normal compared to other kids his age. He gets OT (occupational therapy) and ST (speech therapy) four afternoons a week. He has a penchant for numbers (gee, I wonder where he got that from...) and has shown rudimentary ability for basic math (+, -, *, and /) in his head even though I have never worked with him on it.

One of my cousins is diagnosed to have Aspergers Syndrome, indeed sometimes difficult to interact with at familymeetings but she is a genius on certain points while laking the ability to understand in other fields. But just to go on symptoms that seem indeed to be there is not a good point. There are many symptons that can be pointed out to several disorders/illnesses/caracters. The best thing would be to consult a specialist in the field of the suspected disorder or illness. That person can usuallyt give more clearness and examples in the diagnose and the things that can help or have to be done.

[QUOTE=xilman]
It seems very clear that there is a continuous spectrum of behaviour from manically extrovert to profoundly autistic.[/QUOTE]

I often have the impression that people are much more likely to criticize others for being too "autistic" than for being too "outgoing". Doesn't anyone else also have this impression?

The replies so far echo what I expected to find.

Jinydu, There is NO accusation or criticism intended in this thread. It obviously hit a sore point for you. We all have talents and weaknesses in our personalities. As we grow older, we tend to round out the weaknesses. It is very important for all humans to have social contact but a person with AS has great difficulty interacting appropriately with others. AS is referred to as a spectrum disorder for the very good reason that symptoms occur in a very broad range from negligible to extreme. It also seems to be associated with high levels of mental achievement and, as Xilman has pointed out, is very prevalent in areas such as Silicon Valley.

I happen to be one of those people who could gladly go on a 7 year journey in space all alone and be happy just by myself. I don't like most people because they lack depth of personality. I have very few good friends yet when my father died a few months ago, I received dozens of condolence calls and cards. The reason is that as I have grown older, I have formed relationships with people who understand that I am extremely competent in my area of expertise. They are able to overlook my minor quirks. Please understand that I have never been diagnosed with AS, but as I previously stated, I recognize some of the symptoms in myself.:ermm:

So what kind of person did I marry? A total extrovert, the kind of person who can't stand to be out of contact with people. Unfortunately, also, a person who lacks depth of personality and has very little empathy. It lasted 11 years.

Xilman, I have to disagree on one minor point. The number of females who could be diagnosed with AS is about 1/2 as many as males. While the genetics are not yet understood, it does not appear to be sex linked, rather, the female brain compensates better possibly because of more interconnections between brain hemispheres and resulting increased empathic ability.

Fusion

[QUOTE=Fusion_power]Xilman, I have to disagree on one minor point. The number of females who could be diagnosed with AS is about 1/2 as many as males. While the genetics are not yet understood, it does not appear to be sex linked, rather, the female brain compensates better possibly because of more interconnections between brain hemispheres and resulting increased empathic ability.

Fusion[/QUOTE]I think we are in violent agreement. At least, I haven't yet seen anything we've said that contradicts each other.

I said there's some evidence that it's a hereditary condition but the case is not proven. I also said there are many fewer female geeks than male geeks. I said nothing about the incidence of women with AS. Let's take those in turn.

First, hereditary does not necessarily mean sex-linked by which I interpret as the genes responsible lie on the X or Y chromosomes. For example, amongst Caucasians, it doesn't matter whether your father or mother has brown eyes; you are only going to have blue eyes if [b]both[/b] parents carry the blue-eye gene. Inherit at least one brown-eye gene from either parent and you will have brown eyes (barring a spontaneous mutation of course). My family provides an example. My father is bb (and so has blue eyes) as am I and two of my brothers. My mother must be Bb because she has brown eyes, as does my remaining brother, but must carry the b gene because three of her sons are bb. Actually, she must be Bb from another line of evidence: her father had blue eyes and her mother brown. I really don't know whether my maternal grandmother was Bb or BB because I don't remember whether any of my aunts or uncles had/have blue eyes --- which would decide the question. If all were/are brown-eyed we can't draw any definite conclusion but the statistics would favour BB. But I digress. (incidentally there should be equal numbers of brown and blue eyed siblings in my immediate family. Draw the appropriate conclusion about small number statistics.)

Secondly, I did not make any claim that all geeks have AS or that all AS people are geeks. It would not be wise for me to make that claim because it is demonstrably untrue.
It is also observed that male geeks outnumber female geeks. I make no claim one way or the other as to how great a degree genetics makes to the likelihood of any one person showing the characteristics. It could be entirely a matter of culture or it could be strongly genetically based. I make no assumption other than that the genetic explanation is possible.

However, there is fairly strong evidence that AS people are more likely to be geeky than the general public. If that is the case, and I emphasise that jury is still out on this one, and if AS does have a genetic component, then the epidemiology from the Silicon Valley study, which suggests that having two geeky parents increases the likelihood of their offspring having AS, also supports the assumption that there may be a genetic component to the incidence of AS. Also on this assumption, we would expect to find fewer women with AS than men, and this expectation is supported by the evidence you introduce.

Paul

[QUOTE=Fusion_power]The replies so far echo what I expected to find.

Jinydu, There is NO accusation or criticism intended in this thread. It obviously hit a sore point for you. We all have talents and weaknesses in our personalities. As we grow older, we tend to round out the weaknesses. It is very important for all humans to have social contact but a person with AS has great difficulty interacting appropriately with others. AS is referred to as a spectrum disorder for the very good reason that symptoms occur in a very broad range from negligible to extreme. It also seems to be associated with high levels of mental achievement and, as Xilman has pointed out, is very prevalent in areas such as Silicon Valley.

I happen to be one of those people who could gladly go on a 7 year journey in space all alone and be happy just by myself. I don't like most people because they lack depth of personality. I have very few good friends yet when my father died a few months ago, I received dozens of condolence calls and cards. The reason is that as I have grown older, I have formed relationships with people who understand that I am extremely competent in my area of expertise. They are able to overlook my minor quirks. Please understand that I have never been diagnosed with AS, but as I previously stated, I recognize some of the symptoms in myself.:ermm:

So what kind of person did I marry? A total extrovert, the kind of person who can't stand to be out of contact with people. Unfortunately, also, a person who lacks depth of personality and has very little empathy. It lasted 11 years.

Xilman, I have to disagree on one minor point. The number of females who could be diagnosed with AS is about 1/2 as many as males. While the genetics are not yet understood, it does not appear to be sex linked, rather, the female brain compensates better possibly because of more interconnections between brain hemispheres and resulting increased empathic ability.

Fusion[/QUOTE]

Sorry if I was insensitive...

Folks,

Remember that discussions in on-line text forums such as this one necessarily fail to convey many aspects of human behvior such as gestures, body language, voice tone, and appearance. (E.g., I actually hardly ever wear a cheesehat outdoors except while attending sporting events, so my avatar photo is a bit misleading. :)

[quote]I have noticed that many of the people who frequent this message board exhibit behaviors that resemble Aspberger's syndrome. It is characterized by social ineptness,[/quote]How much social eptness can really be conveyed here? :)

[quote]tendency to focus exclusively on a fixed subject,[/quote]Comments that stray from a thread's topic are labelled "off-topic" and are considered mildly undesirable if carried far. So, of course you find focus on fixed subjects here!

[quote]inability to interact effectively with other people,[/quote]Uhmm ... how much effective interaction with other people [u]can[/u] any of us demonstrate here?

[quote]failed relationships,[/quote]Well, there are lots of questions about Prime95 stress test failures, but ... :)

[quote]lack of close friends,[/quote]You know by now what I'm going to ask: Doesn't the forum format limit how much any of us [u]can[/u] demonstrate closeness of friendship?

[quote]and a tendency toward outstanding achievement in some specific field such as mathematics.[/quote]In a forum whose subject is the quest for the largest known prime numbers ...

Let's all keep in mind the [u]selection effect[/u]: If the examples from which one draws conclusions are not an appropriate random representative subset of reality, then there is a "selection effect" because the sample has been selected in a nonrandom, nonrepresentative fashion.

I'm not disparaging discussion of Aspberger's syndrome; I'm cautioning everyone to think about how much the limitations of the forum format are affecting conclusions drawn from postings here.

Coincidentally, I was reading Slashdot earlier, where I was eventually lead to this page: [url]http://www.edge.org/q2005/q05_5.html[/url]

Scroll down about half-way, to the contribution by Simon Baron-Cohen.

The entire series is well worth reading, IMAO.


Paul